According to the EPA, this is also a subcompact:
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Don't think that it will be an issue one way or another.
-- Fab.
Don't think that it will be an issue one way or another.
-- Fab.
Will "subcompact" affect insurance rates?
So, the EPA in it's great wisdom (which was obtained by the Wizard of Oz apparently) has decided that the Karma is a sub-compact. Whatever.
What I want to know is will this rating help insurance rates or hurt? Or not matter at all?
Allstate still has no idea what the Fisker Karma is, so I still don't know what this thing is going to cost to insure.
-Brian
What I want to know is will this rating help insurance rates or hurt? Or not matter at all?
Allstate still has no idea what the Fisker Karma is, so I still don't know what this thing is going to cost to insure.
-Brian
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Can't get mad at the EPA. Their rules are clear, and fisker compromised interior space for their design.brian said:So, the EPA in it's great wisdom (which was obtained by the Wizard of Oz apparently) has decided that the Karma is a sub-compact. Whatever.
What I want to know is will this rating help insurance rates or hurt? Or not matter at all?
Allstate still has no idea what the Fisker Karma is, so I still don't know what this thing is going to cost to insure.
-Brian
Like the Bentley, you don't buy a Karma for the interior space.
The insurance should be about the same as a BMW X6 M since they're about the same weight and price.
The insurance should be about the same as a BMW X6 M since they're about the same weight and price.
Farmers supposedly has an EV discount. It's worth looking into.Mycroft said:The insurance should be about the same as a BMW X6 M since they're about the same weight and price.
-- Fab.
I got quoted based on stats and not a VIN because it is too new about a month ago at roughly $100/month for a 40 year old single male with an excellent driving record from USAA.
Pay attention to the new CAFE rules. A company's cars must meet requirements at each size class. So is the Karma rated as a 20MPG subcompact, or at 52MPGe? Or an average? I'm assuming Bentleys are saddled with a guzzler tax, wouldn't the greatest irony be if the Karma was also?
Anyone know how the Volt fits into this picture? That would provide an answer. But then it gets 37MPG on gas.
Anyone know how the Volt fits into this picture? That would provide an answer. But then it gets 37MPG on gas.
I don't think there's a "guzzler tax" anywhere in the U.S. Is there?
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/index.htmMycroft said:I don't think there's a "guzzler tax" anywhere in the U.S. Is there?
Not exactly sure how this works... by my own admission I should know more about this before I raise such questions. But classed as a subcompact, the Karma will be expected to meet the same CAFE standards as a Ford Fiesta and a Chevrolet Sonic, for example.
By logic, I'm guessing EPA will use the Karma's 52MPGe rating, or perhaps an average of that with it's 20MPG gas rating, but honestly I never expect a government agency to do anything logically. I'm asking because I really don't know where the Volt for example falls in these CAFE figures. Due to the unique nature of the way it operates, there isn't just one MPG figure, and thus its two figures really can't be properly averaged.
The Karma as we know operates the same way as the Volt. So I'm just wondering what the effect of its low MPG numbers will be on its CAFE status. Especially classed as it is as a subcompact.
Well, actually, they do use a lot of logic, it just tends to be hemmed about by rules written by politicians.mattjs33 said:By logic, I'm guessing EPA will use the Karma's 52MPGe rating, or perhaps an average of that with it's 20MPG gas rating, but honestly I never expect a government agency to do anything logically. ...
If there is no outside-imposed craziness the EPA rule is probably something like "assume average commute distance and fully charged battery" which will result in a "tax number" of, yes, about 52 MPGe (average commute being roughly 15 miles / 25 minutes, USA-wide).In this particular case, though, the EPA sticker that someone already photographed has no extra tax added, so I believe we can assume that they have used a number that results in no additional taxes.
A bit more research... Apparently the Volt is rated at a combined 60MPG (2012 model year data from the EPA wwebsite) which is not quite the average of its combined gas and MPGe figures. The thing that confuses me is that the Karma's label doesn't show city vs. highway figures; there is only one number for each.
But anyway the average of the gas and MPGe figures for the Karma is 36, so a rating in the low 30's for CAFE purposes isn't out of the question. That's going to be cutting it very close in the next few years, as the standards increase for each model year. As far as I understand them.
But anyway the average of the gas and MPGe figures for the Karma is 36, so a rating in the low 30's for CAFE purposes isn't out of the question. That's going to be cutting it very close in the next few years, as the standards increase for each model year. As far as I understand them.
Ah, so it's a federal tax that's tacked onto the sticker price before you even buy the car.
This is from EPA's website explaining the Gas Guzzler tax:
-- Fab.
The tax is calculated based on overall MPG regardless of the size of the car. Any car that gets more than 22.5 MPG overall is exempt from the tax. Assuming they start with a fully charged battery in stealth mode, since most of the test covers city driving, it is hard to imagine the Karma even coming close to dipping below 22.5 MPG, but this is Fisker we are talking about, so all bets are off.The Gas Guzzler Tax for each vehicle is based on its combined city and highway fuel economy value. Manufacturers must follow U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) procedures to calculate the tax. The calculation uses a formula that weights fuel economy test results for city and highway driving cycles (the combined value is based on 55% city driving and 45% highway driving) ... [T]he combined city and highway fuel economy that is used to determine tax liability is not adjusted to account for in-use shortfall [calculated reductions to MPG that are meant to account for real-word conditions such as cold starts, hills, and high acceleration and speed], so it is higher than the mpg values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide (www.fueleconomy.gov) and posted on the window stickers of new vehicles..
-- Fab.
The 22.5 figure is the current value. The Obama administration has made quite a bit of fanfare about having recently raised the CAFE values in effect through 2016. There will be a pretty sharp increase in the required values for each successive model year.
I don't have the figures here but I saw them in Car and Driver's last issue. Most of the current fleet would not qualify in a few years' time, and that's including a lot of smaller vehicles that are much more efficient than the Karma is. Depending of course on what the EPA decides the Karma's combined figure is.
I don't have the figures here but I saw them in Car and Driver's last issue. Most of the current fleet would not qualify in a few years' time, and that's including a lot of smaller vehicles that are much more efficient than the Karma is. Depending of course on what the EPA decides the Karma's combined figure is.
CAFE standards apply to the manufacturer's fleet, not each individual car. In the case of Fisker, assuming they can get their act together, by the time the new standards take effect, most of the fleet will consist of Ninas and Nina derivatives that will (most likely) be more efficient than the Karma because of lower weight, more efficient ICE, etc. I doubt that this will be a big issue. Getting the cars built and in customers' hands is another story.
-- Fab.
-- Fab.
That's the way it used to work. Thus GM could balance out their large trucks and SUVs by slinging a bunch of Aveos onto the public. Under the new rules though, each model line must meet the rating of its class. Thus a fullsize pickup will have a standard relative to fullsize pickups. And a subcompact car will have a different standard.Fabulist said:CAFE standards apply to the manufacturer's fleet, not each individual car. In the case of Fisker, assuming they can get their act together, by the time the new standards take effect, most of the fleet will consist of Ninas and Nina derivatives that will (most likely) be more efficient than the Karma because of lower weight, more efficient ICE, etc. I doubt that this will be a big issue. Getting the cars built and in customers' hands is another story.
-- Fab.
Unfortunately the efficiency of the Nina will not help the Karma, unless they happen to be in the same EPA class range.
I will find the relevant article and post more tomorrow.
Brian, are you married? That makes a huge difference. I have shopped around and I have never seen USAA's rates beat. And I have never had an issue with claims either. Of course, I have only claimed once for someone smashing in my passenger door at a dealership, and two windshield chips each on a different car.brian said:I hope Allstate does a little better for me because even my $150k Aston only costs me about $1000/year. Multi-car discounts and all that obviously, so maybe that matters.
-Brian
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Guys, I was reviewing the article I spoke of, and I am completely wrong -- the CAFE numbers are based on the physical size of the vehicle, not the EPA designated interior volume classifications. Not only that, but an additional credit factor is given for advanced technologies, such as electric, hybrid, fuel cell and such.
The Karma should have no problem meeting current and future CAFE ratings.
My apologies to all, not only for hijacking this thread, but for putting forth a fair amount of incorrect information.
The Karma should have no problem meeting current and future CAFE ratings.
My apologies to all, not only for hijacking this thread, but for putting forth a fair amount of incorrect information.
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