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EX:Shadow/Canyon #324
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Fisker and folks in this forum have been using $.10 per kwh in calculating operating costs for the Karma in EV mode. I just checked my PG&E tariff in Northern California and my costs will be significantly higher.

I'm on time of day metering, and plan to charge my Karma off peak, which is after 7pm in Summer and after 8pm in Winter. Off peak rates are very similar for both seasons:

0-11 KWH per day $.09
11-14 $.11
14-22 $.27
22+ $.31

Assuming the battery is 85% depleted, a charge will be 18 KWH. With other electrical usage, that means I will be paying $.27-$.31 per KWH, or about $5.40 to travel 32 miles, according to the EPA rating

At 20 mpg and $4.00 per gallon for gas, 32 miles costs $6.40, so I'm only saving $1.00 by operating as an EV.

Am I missing something here?

Dennis
 

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dennis said:
Fisker and folks in this forum have been using $.10 per kwh in calculating operating costs for the Karma in EV mode. I just checked my PG&E tariff in Northern California and my costs will be significantly higher.

I'm on time of day metering, and plan to charge my Karma off peak, which is after 7pm in Summer and after 8pm in Winter. Off peak rates are very similar for both seasons:

0-11 KWH per day $.09
11-14 $.11
14-22 $.27
22+ $.31

Assuming the battery is 85% depleted, a charge will be 18 KWH. With other electrical usage, that means I will be paying $.27-$.31 per KWH, or about $5.40 to travel 32 miles, according to the EPA rating

At 20 mpg and $4.00 per gallon for gas, 32 miles costs $6.40, so I'm only saving $1.00 by operating as an EV.

Am I missing something here?

Dennis
First, unless things have changed a lot, those are not the right numbers for TOU, which does (or did) not have the tiered rates -- those look like the regular non-TOU rates.

Second, you need to get yourself on the EV rate schedule! (E-9? I forget, it's been a decade now.) It's also time-of-use based so you will want to charge late at night, and you will pay far less for your EV charging. Of course you'll also want to shift your other usage to night if possible, unless you end up with two meters (there are various options, and PG&E will likely attempt to stick you with whatever is worst for you, so you'll have to do lots of homework).

Last, I pay about $.10/kWh, a bit less in winter. Anywhere other than California and parts of New England, electricity tends to be a lot less expensive. (Vermont, at $.17/kWh, is the second priciest place in the continental US. Hawaii is worse than CA or VT but that's outside continental-US.)
 

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dennis said:
Fisker and folks in this forum have been using $.10 per kwh in calculating operating costs for the Karma in EV mode. I just checked my PG&E tariff in Northern California and my costs will be significantly higher.
Unfortunately, Dennis, you and I are in California, and we pay much higher rates than average (which is why I installed a 7.3 KW solar PV system on the house). $0.10 is an easy figure to work with, and it is close to the U.S. national baseline average. Of course, higher use begets higher rates above baseline, so it also depends on one's efficiency.

Here are a couple websites that show U.S. rates by State:

http://energybible.com/solar_energy/electric_rates-by-state.html

http://www.think-energy.net/Electricity%20cost%20per%20state_2009.jpg

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=electricity_factors_affecting_prices

California's rates, once you are into a range of $0.30 per kwh for high use, it really makes sense to go with solar, especially if you believe, as I do, that rates are likely to go much higher in the next 3-10 years. You can also get a time of use meter plan with PG&E, whereby you get a better rate at night (to charge your car), and "sell back" into the system at a higher rate during the day when your solar panels are cranking.
 

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Here's what I found for Austin Energy:


Under 500 kWh would be 5.514 cents per kWh
501-1000 kWh would be 9.514 cents per kWh
1001-1500 kWh would be 12.014 cents per kWh
1501-2500 kWh would be 13.514 cents per kWh
More than 2500 kWh would be 14.514 per kWh


-Brian
 

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brian said:
Here's what I found for Austin Energy:


Under 500 kWh would be 5.514 cents per kWh
501-1000 kWh would be 9.514 cents per kWh
1001-1500 kWh would be 12.014 cents per kWh
1501-2500 kWh would be 13.514 cents per kWh
More than 2500 kWh would be 14.514 per kWh


-Brian
Probably would make sense to get a separate meter for car charging (if that option is available) to get a separate base for the EVSE from your overall electrical usage.

-- Fab.[hr]
Dave_Car_Guy said:
Unfortunately, Dennis, you and I are in California, and we pay much higher rates than average (which is why I installed a 7.3 KW solar PV system on the house).
@Dave: Have you done any comparison between the solar TOU rate (E6) and the EV rate (E9)? I was not planning on changing my rate plan for car charging or to get a separate meter since the rates seemed very similar. Have you done any research on this that you could share? Thanks.

-- Fab.
 

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Fabulist said:
Probably would make sense to get a separate meter for car charging (if that option is available) to get a separate base for the EVSE from your overall electrical usage.
I did a little quick searching after my previous reply. You can indeed get a separate meter from PG&E, but there's a cost to it. Might not be worth it; you'll need to make up a spreadsheet. Moreover, there are changes coming down the pipeline for 2012 or 2013, and apparently there are no final details yet. (EDIT: oops, I realize you were saying that to Brian re whatever energy tariffs are in Austin. Never mind!)

This is the kind of craziness that makes me glad not to live in PG&E-land anymore. :dodgy:[hr]
Dave_Car_Guy said:
http://energybible.com/solar_energy/electric_rates-by-state.html
The 2009 numbers are out of date: Utah's residential rates have gone up a penny (to an average of about 0.09/kWh). Also "by state" is a really big variable for a lot of states (not as bad in Utah but there are municipal energy providers, e.g., Murray City has different charges than Rocky Mountain Power). And of course, "average" cost is not really relevant, what matters is marginal cost, since an EV will use additional energy.
 

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I don't think there's any special rates in Massachusetts. I pay $0.15446/kWh all day/night long and regardless of what I'm doing with the electricity. My only option is to pay MORE, if I choose to use only "green energy" like Wind, Solar, etc...It's not uncommon for my summer electric bills to be $700-800...

BTW, I totally disagree that $0.10 is "close to the U.S. national baseline average". 1.) That 11.33 number is garbage. Surely they are just taking a straight average. You can't take the number from North Dakota and simply average it with California. If you look at all the populous states where these cars will likely occupy, they are almost all $0.12+. And from those, NY, NJ, CA, New England (kind of lumping that as one big state) are all $0.146 and up. So, it's either 20% or in many cases 45-50% higher than the $0.10 "average". I'm not buying the math on that one...
 

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EX:Shadow/Canyon #324
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
ct-fiskerbuzz said:
First, unless things have changed a lot, those are not the right numbers for TOU, which does (or did) not have the tiered rates -- those look like the regular non-TOU rates.

Second, you need to get yourself on the EV rate schedule! (E-9? I forget, it's been a decade now.) It's also time-of-use based so you will want to charge late at night, and you will pay far less for your EV charging.
Thanks! The rate schedule I am currently on is E-6 (time of usage). By going to E-9 (EV) the top rate will be $.20, reducing my cost by 1/3.

Dennis[hr]
Dave_Car_Guy said:
California's rates, once you are into a range of $0.30 per kwh for high use, it really makes sense to go with solar, especially if you believe, as I do, that rates are likely to go much higher in the next 3-10 years. You can also get a time of use meter plan with PG&E, whereby you get a better rate at night (to charge your car), and "sell back" into the system at a higher rate during the day when your solar panels are cranking.
I covered my house's roof with photovoltaic solar panels about 4 years ago and cut my electric bill by 2/3. That put me on the time of use plan, which are the numbers I quoted in my original post. It looks like the E-9 EV tariff is even better.

Dennis
 

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Fabulist said:
@Dave: Have you done any comparison between the solar TOU rate (E6) and the EV rate (E9)? I was not planning on changing my rate plan for car charging or to get a separate meter since the rates seemed very similar. Have you done any research on this that you could share? Thanks.
I am on a net metering rate plan (NEMS XB) with PG&E, not TOU. Once the car comes and I see how I use it, I may look into new plans. I am also building a new house, so the rate plan at this location won't matter by next summer (I'll still be in the same area but will change my power use with the new place). The new place will have more solar (8KW or so), but with my 7.3 KW system now my solar output has been staying fairly steady this year compared to 2010. My total solar output in 2010 was 9724 kwh or 26.64 kwh/day on average. It peaks at about 1000 kwh per month for July and August each year, and troughs at about 400 in December and January. Total electric usage on top of the Solar production is about 30 kwh per day in both 2010 and 2011 (yeah, we're electricity hogs). Given that my marginal rates for electricity above 30 kwh a day are $0.30 to $0.40 a kwh, I am saving about $3500 a year on my electricity bill.
 

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EX:Shadow/Canyon #324
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Fabulist said:
@Dave: Have you done any comparison between the solar TOU rate (E6) and the EV rate (E9)? I was not planning on changing my rate plan for car charging or to get a separate meter since the rates seemed very similar. Have you done any research on this that you could share? Thanks.

-- Fab.
Looking over the rate sheets for the two tariffs, E-9 rates are 30%-45% cheaper during off-peak hours, and 10% more expensive during peak hours. This has a double benefit for the owner who has solar panels and charges their EV at night, since they will get higher credits for the power they sell back to PG&E during the peak period, and pay less for the power they use when charging off-peak, as well as all other off-peak power that is consumed.

I will definitely change to E-9 once my Fisker is registered, which appears to be the requirement to qualify.

Dennis
 

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dennis said:
Looking over the rate sheets for the two tariffs, E-9 rates are 30%-45% cheaper during off-peak hours, and 10% more expensive during peak hours. This has a double benefit for the owner who has solar panels and charges their EV at night, since they will get higher credits for the power they sell back to PG&E during the peak period, and pay less for the power they use when charging off-peak, as well as all other off-peak power that is consumed.

I will definitely change to E-9 once my Fisker is registered, which appears to be the requirement to qualify.

Dennis
Yes, it sounds like a whole bunch of other stuff has changed, but the huge advantage of E-9 remains a huge advantage. Before I left the Bay Area, I was considering putting up solar PV. The numbers worked (especially if I managed to get on E-9), but by the time I could get to it, I was already looking at selling the house, and was not sure whether prospective buyers would like the idea of having roof-mounted PV panels.

(In retrospect, I sold three years too soon—mid 2002 instead of mid 2005—as I could have gotten another $250k if I had hit the peak. Oh well! I still don't know if the PV panels would have gone over well, but even after capital gains taxes, the $250k would have totally swamped the PV system cost.)
 
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