[Weird Fishes]

Wow. This is amazing! I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I'm so disappointed that Fisker is struggling, but I'm happy Tesla is succeeding!

http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/autos/tesla-sales-bmw-mercedes-audi/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

 

[Stefan]

For sure, Tesla can be proud about what they archived. Jodi's to them!!!

But do they authors really believe, that these cars are comparable?

Model S looks like a Mazda 6 and the interior seems to be produced at Hyundai.

And for Audi: if you go for the premium editions of the A7 and A5, they would have beaten the Model S easily.
It is not Audi's fault, that Tesla has no options to chose from.






Stefan
German Karma Forum
www.karma-forum.de

 

[AnOutsider]

Before the model s we had 3 Audis (still do actually(. I passed on the Audi A7 for the S. had the S been a traditional ICe car it would have been no contest for an A7, but for all its shortcomings, the S just offers something you can't pass up.

 

[NotTarts]

Model S looks like a Mazda 6 and the interior seems to be produced at Hyundai.

The dash of the Model S does seem like an absolute hack job. Apparently it looks better in person.

Their design for the Model X is much better in my eyes, screen integration issues aside:

 

[smoothoperator]

The interior of the Model S is absolutely hideous- the materials are retro and not in a good way. Media loves Tesla but absolutely hates Fisker; it is clear that the Model S is not as good as people say and the Karma is much better than what is being portrayed.

 

[AnOutsider]

The dash of the Model S does seem like an absolute hack job. Apparently it looks better in person.

Their design for the Model X is much better in my eyes, screen integration issues aside:

I've never once sat in the car and thought: I hate this dash. If the thousands of other buyers felt that way though, it wasn't enough to stop their purchase. Looks aren't everything, as we've learned.

 

[Arch fisker]

people seem to be so 'wowed' by the large touch screen that they overlook the generic design attributes that define the rest of the car. I guess that is why car designers like fisker will always be in demand from the selective few of us who really care about aesthetics as much as function.

 

[Eric Karma]

Karma's appeal to all other senses

people seem to be so 'wowed' by the large touch screen that they overlook the generic design attributes that define the rest of the car. I guess that is why car designers like fisker will always be in demand from the selective few of us who really care about aesthetics as much as function.

Putting aside the gargantuan visual differences between both cars. I could be blindfolded and my head placed through the open window of both cars, and the difference in the scent of the Karma interior and model S interior is shocking. The Karma smells like the inside of a Gucci store, while the model S smells like a Kia. Its has a very plasticky smell. Similarly blindfolded, running my hands along the interior of both cars, again the Karma feels more like a Bentley, and the model S like a Nissan Altima with a leather upgrade.

Seems like they've discovered that the large central screen and lack of a center console (not unlike a police car) may have been a design flaw, and they are now offering a console as an upgrade.

Why spend 100k on a car (tesla) with the exterior and interior appeal of a 50k car? It's overpriced, and it's boutique appeal won't. You may want to sell your Tesla stock at a profit, as many Facebook stockholder's wish they had. It's a flash in the pan car concept. As other car manufacturers (MB, Porsche, Audi, BMW) offer plug ins, the Tesla shortcomings will become more apparent.

 

[Sigurd]

I hope you're wrong, Eric. I admire what Tesla has accomplished. This is the best news any car not dependent on oil has received. How the major oil companies let happen is beyond my understanding, but this deserves attention. Go Tesla! The S might not be a car for me, but it is a car that should serve a lot of people wonderfully. I wish them nothing but continued success.

 

[Lormax]

Anyone here on the board happen to know anyone at Tesla that would help an unemployed EV tech get a job? Application is already in on their site...PM me

 

[dennis]

You may want to sell your Tesla stock at a profit, as many Facebook stockholder's wish they had. It's a flash in the pan car concept. As other car manufacturers (MB, Porsche, Audi, BMW) offer plug ins, the Tesla shortcomings will become more apparent.

While I did sell my Tesla stock today at $90, it was because I think they don't deserve a $10B market cap. I plan to buy it back as I am a long term investor in the company.

Tesla's momentum in the marketplace continues to build. With the quarterly profit and glowing Consumer Reports evaluation last week, they unlocked a large set of buyers who were concerned about Tesla's viability. The "lease" financing package addressed the concerns of prospects worried about residual value and those needing financing options. The improvements to the battery warranty removed the buying obstacle for those with battery longevity concerns. P85+ addresses the handling issues with the original Performance option. Every time there is a buyer objection, Tesla comes out with a policy change or program that knocks down that objection, and they do it in a timely fashion. That is a fundamental differentiator for Tesla as a Silicon Valley startup vs. the established auto companies (and Fisker).

The other point that is missed by the Tesla doubters is that the Model S has twice the range of any other BEV. That is huge, since it means that in daily driving there is never any range anxiety. They continue to chip away at the road trip charging issues, first with free Supercharger refueling and now with upcoming announcements on 90kw->120kw supercharging and possibly battery swaps, which has been the subject of recent rumors.

While I still love driving my Karma, I'm impressed with what Tesla is accomplishing as a company and would not bet against them. Just ask the shorts.

 

[Weird Fishes]

While I did sell my Tesla stock today at $90, it was because I think they don't deserve a $10B market cap. I plan to buy it back as I am a long term investor in the company.

Tesla's momentum in the marketplace continues to build. With the quarterly profit and glowing Consumer Reports evaluation last week, they unlocked a large set of buyers who were concerned about Tesla's viability. The "lease" financing package addressed the concerns of prospects worried about residual value and those needing financing options. The improvements to the battery warranty removed the buying obstacle for those with battery longevity concerns. P85+ addresses the handling issues with the original Performance option. Every time there is a buyer objection, Tesla comes out with a policy change or program that knocks down that objection, and they do it in a timely fashion. That is a fundamental differentiator for Tesla as a Silicon Valley startup vs. the established auto companies (and Fisker).

The other point that is missed by the Tesla doubters is that the Model S has twice the range of any other BEV. That is huge, since it means that in daily driving there is never any range anxiety. They continue to chip away at the road trip charging issues, first with free Supercharger refueling and now with upcoming announcements on 90kw->120kw supercharging and possibly battery swaps, which has been the subject of recent rumors.

While I still love driving my Karma, I'm impressed with what Tesla is accomplishing as a company and would not bet against them. Just ask the shorts.

I completely agree with Dennis. Tesla seems to be nimble, creative, and responsive to customers/criticism. I'm not wild about the design of the car, but it is undeniably impressive, as is the company that builds and sells it. I completely applaud their success and hope it continues. I just wish we could be saying the same thing about Fisker right now.

 

[NotTarts]

Why spend 100k on a car (tesla) with the exterior and interior appeal of a 50k car? It's overpriced, and it's boutique appeal won't.

At the same time, why spend $110k on a massive car that has the performance of a Chevy Volt and less cargo and interior space than a Civic Coupe? People have different definitions of what constitutes a shortcoming, and as with anything a consumer will weigh the positives and negatives.

You may want to sell your Tesla stock at a profit, as many Facebook stockholder's wish they had. It's a flash in the pan car concept. As other car manufacturers (MB, Porsche, Audi, BMW) offer plug ins, the Tesla shortcomings will become more apparent.

Frankly, I'm very underwhelmed by what I've seen coming out of other luxury marques. Let's recap:

Mercedes:
- Electric family car with ~100 mi range
- $500,000 electric sports car

BMW:
- Electric city car with ~100 mi range
- $130,000 PHEV sports car

Audi:
- Electric family car with < 100 mi range
- Cancelled $125,000+ electric sports car
- Cancelled unpriced electric sports car

None of these cars have been released. Some of them may or will never be released. But most importantly, none of them compete with the Model S. By the time these German automakers release an electric in the same segment, Tesla will already have covered most of the US with a charging network (+ started the rollout in Europe) and begun production of a fully electric SUV. Assuming Tesla survives.

 

[Fabulist]

I am a big fan of Tesla and have great admiration for the car and the company for all the reasons stated. In the interest of full context, I need to point out two basic facts here:

1: Tesla has been around for 10 years and they just had their first profitable quarter; and
2: The cars that were delivered in the aforementioned quarter were ordered over the last year, so they represent far more than a quarter's worth of sales.

I would love to see Tesla succeed because at this point they are in fact expanding the EV market when they sell each car, but we can't read too much into their recent numbers and there needs to be more time and more history to see if they will succeed or be sold to a major car company. I have a hard time believing that when a prospective luxury car buyer puts Tesla on their list under Mercedes, Audi, BMW, etc. That day is not too far off. But we are not at the stage yet where the average middle-aged guy looking for their next 100K+ luxury car would simply consider an EV as one of their choices rather than a way to think outside the box. Until that happens, all of this can come tumbling down. I certainly hope that it does not, but one quarter is not enough to convince me.

 

[Dutch]

Putting aside the gargantuan visual differences between both cars. I could be blindfolded and my head placed through the open window of both cars, and the difference in the scent of the Karma interior and model S interior is shocking. The Karma smells like the inside of a Gucci store, while the model S smells like a Kia. Its has a very plasticky smell. Similarly blindfolded, running my hands along the interior of both cars, again the Karma feels more like a Bentley, and the model S like a Nissan Altima with a leather upgrade.

Seems like they've discovered that the large central screen and lack of a center console (not unlike a police car) may have been a design flaw, and they are now offering a console as an upgrade.

Why spend 100k on a car (tesla) with the exterior and interior appeal of a 50k car? It's overpriced, and it's boutique appeal won't. You may want to sell your Tesla stock at a profit, as many Facebook stockholder's wish they had. It's a flash in the pan car concept. As other car manufacturers (MB, Porsche, Audi, BMW) offer plug ins, the Tesla shortcomings will become more apparent.

That's all very nice. But I wish Fisker would have spent a little bit less time on sunken wood, cow hides from green pastures and glass particles in the paint and some bloody more time on testing the car!

The people who received the first few hundred cars, and I was one of those, were given a product that had so many faults that it still makes me angry when I think of it. Henrik had been driving one for months, as were other people at Fisker. They must have noticed the many faults and flaws and still they decided to ship the cars to customers. It may smell and look nice, but its build quality and performance lacked.

The Model S may smell less posh - didn't notice that on my test drives though - and it doesn't turn as many heads, but at least the Model S works as advertised and delivers what it promises, even better. So I will be happy getting mine in three months time and hopefully forget about all the problems and the financial loss my Karma caused me.

I really wish Fisker would have succeeded. I rooted for them; for years I was one of their most supportive posters on the internet. It's such a shame that mismanagement, combined with bad luck, caused the end of what was a great idea.

 

[AnOutsider]

Why spend 100k on a car (tesla) with the exterior and interior appeal of a 50k car? It's overpriced, and it's boutique appeal won't.

Says the guy who paid 50k+ on visual and olfactory updates on his volt.

(Sorry, not meaning to offend the other karma owners, this is just stupid fanboy "logic" though)

 

[AnOutsider]

That's all very nice. But I wish Fisker would have spent a little bit less time on sunken wood, cow hides from green pastures and glass particles in the paint and some bloody more time on testing the car!

The people who received the first few hundred cars, and I was one of those, were given a product that had so many faults that it still makes me angry when I think of it. Henrik had been driving one for months, as were other people at Fisker. They must have noticed the many faults and flaws and still they decided to ship the cars to customers. It may smell and look nice, but its build quality and performance lacked.

Surely, but to play advocate for fisker for a moment, they probably needed at least another year on the software, but if the recent discussions are true, couldn't because of DOE demands. Perhaps it would have been wiser to dumb down the software until they could roll out software as tesla did (going on a year and we're still missing features promised at launch, but what's there is fairly solid).

 

[Fabulist]

Says the guy who paid 50k+ on visual and olfactory updates on his volt.

(Sorry, not meaning to offend the other karma owners, this is just stupid fanboy "logic" though)

As Henrik has said on a number of occasions, anything more than $20K spent on a car is buying emotion not transportation. Obviously our emotions do not always line up, which is why there are more than one brand of car in the world and why we are not all married to the same single person. The desire to own a Karma is just as valid as the desire to own a Tesla, but it is a desire not a need, and insulting people who have different desires than you is a very ineffective way to make your point.

Also, offending people and then saying that you did not intend to do it does not make it any less offensive. If you are going to call someone stupid, then own it.

 

[smoothoperator]

As Henrik has said on a number of occasions, anything more than $20K spent on a car is buying emotion not transportation. Obviously our emotions do not always line up, which is why there are more than one brand of car in the world and why we are not all married to the same single person. The desire to own a Karma is just as valid as the desire to own a Tesla, but it is a desire not a need, and insulting people who have different desires than you is a very ineffective way to make your point.

Also, offending people and then saying that you did not intend to do it does not make it any less offensive. If you are going to call someone stupid, then own it.

The guy is a troll, I am surprised you have not figured that out. He comes in here to try to rile people up.

 

[Fabulist]

Surely, but to play advocate for fisker for a moment, they probably needed at least another year on the software, but if the recent discussions are true, couldn't because of DOE demands. Perhaps it would have been wiser to dumb down the software until they could roll out software as tesla did (going on a year and we're still missing features promised at launch, but what's there is fairly solid).

I don't think the DOE can be blamed on this one. This one is squarely on the management's shoulders. They severely underestimated the delivery schedule and then rather than be honest about the delay, the tried to blame the cows in Scotland, the EPA, and the TUV. I suspect if they had pushed the delivery back by another 6 months to perfect the car, they would not have lost any more orders than they did by releasing the car with significant flaws. I think a year is probably too pessimistic. The 615/618 software released by LaSorta was quite good and that only took two to three months of additional development. 510 is absolutely solid, in my experience, and that came out shortly after 618.