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Outside of the looks department, the Model S looks like it's offering a much more advanced package and better value. What do you guys think?

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options
Tesla Model S specs
 

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I like it. Won't buy it for awhile but I could see it as a daily driver. Dang that 0-60 is fast!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
AnOutsider said:
It's funny that over on the Tesla forums there's more negativity about it than here.
What's the negativity about?

Btw Tesla only charges an extra $750 to $1,500 for special paints!
 

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SoCalGuy said:
AnOutsider said:
It's funny that over on the Tesla forums there's more negativity about it than here.
What's the negativity about?

Btw Tesla only charges an extra $750 to $1,500 for special paints!
A bunch of people are upset that the base Model S (160 mile) doesn't support Tesla's future superchargers, that the 0-60 of the lower models are slower and that the tech package is 3750.

Also some grumblings about the higher cost of the signature option (which I'm torn on).
 

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Discussion Starter #6
AnOutsider said:
SoCalGuy said:
AnOutsider said:
It's funny that over on the Tesla forums there's more negativity about it than here.
What's the negativity about?

Btw Tesla only charges an extra $750 to $1,500 for special paints!
A bunch of people are upset that the base Model S (160 mile) doesn't support Tesla's future superchargers, that the 0-60 of the lower models are slower and that the tech package is 3750.

Also some grumblings about the higher cost of the signature option (which I'm torn on).
Ah - these folks should count their blessings! They obviously haven't been through the Fisker process ;)
 

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EX:Shadow/Canyon #324
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If you include all of the options that make the Model S comparably equipped to the Karma, as Tesla has done with the Signature Edition, the price is $87,900+$7500 tax credit = $95,400.

Karma pricing for EcoSport+metallic paint = $113,000.

The Tesla is 15% cheaper, 10% faster (5.6 vs. 6.3 to 60mph) and much roomier in both interior and storage.

Karma is much better looking and there is no range anxiety.

You would hope that both can be successful in the marketplace, especially if Fisker gets their execution act together under their new executive management.
 

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SoCalGuy said:
Btw Tesla only charges an extra $750 to $1,500 for special paints!
They have less car body to paint. :D

I'm also not at all sure those prices are going to hold. If (as I expect will happen) there are hitches that delay "full production"—already pushed back to "mid 2013"—I'd bet that by 2014, some of the prices will change. Of course they could actually move down, depending on competition from the Nina. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #9
dennis said:
If you include all of the options that make the Model S comparably equipped to the Karma, as Tesla has done with the Signature Edition, the price is $87,900+$7500 tax credit = $95,400.

Karma pricing for EcoSport+metallic paint = $113,000.

The Tesla is 15% cheaper, 10% faster (5.6 vs. 6.3 to 60mph) and much roomier in both interior and storage.

Karma is much better looking and there is no range anxiety.

You would hope that both can be successful in the marketplace, especially if Fisker gets their execution act together under their new executive management.
0-60 time is actually 4.4s!!!
 

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I could easily see a merger between Tesla and Fisker in future years. Fisker stying and range anxiety resolution, Tesla manufacturing and model S/Nina. Think about it. Makes more sense than one might think.
 

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SoCalGuy said:
Ah - these folks should count their blessings! They obviously haven't been through the Fisker process ;)
All new products look their best before they are delivered :D That's where the phrase "don't confuse selling with installing" comes from.

Tesla had plenty of delivery delays and teething problems with the Roadster. Hopefully the Model S will go more smoothly, but every startup automotive vendor, including the perfectionists at McLaren, has experienced delays and issues bringing new car models to the market. We can revisit this in June with the first Model S's are scheduled to be delivered.
 

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Deep Ocean said:
I could easily see a merger between Tesla and Fisker in future years. Fisker stying and range anxiety resolution, Tesla manufacturing and model S/Nina. Think about it. Makes more sense than one might think.
With the bad blood between fisker and tesla I don't see that happening. I agree though. While I don't 100% love the karma's styling, it's definitely more striking than what Franz has come up with
 

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SoCalGuy said:
[0-60 time is actually 4.4s!!!
Only if you spend another $10,000 for the Performance option. But you also get "exterior carbon fiber accents".
 

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:heart:Nice car and I might buy one! But to me, the rear end is Jaguar XF like. The front has a prominet T which fits in with the Taurus of yesteryear grill. The side view is between Saab for the middle and and latest Audi hind quarters. I just don't see a very distictive design like a Karma, a Lamborghini or BMW. Looks a bit Asian to me, even though that's not a bad thing, just a little repetitive.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Sigurd said:
:heart:Nice car and I might buy one! But to me, the rear end is Jaguar XF like. The front has a prominet T which fits in with the Taurus of yesteryear grill. The side view is between Saab for the middle and and latest Audi hind quarters. I just don't see a very distictive design like a Karma, a Lamborghini or BMW. Looks a bit Asian to me, even though that's not a bad thing, just a little repetitive.
Agree on all points. It is too bad that Fisker had a falling out with Musk, because imagine if all those tech features where wrapped in a Karma body! Killer!!!

I was able to sit in the Beta in NYC a month or so ago. The interior is definitely more spacious than the Karma and has some cool accent lighting that makes it look really neat at night. Too bad Fisker overlooked that. The exterior of the Model S is "blah" - reminds me of what the lovechild of Mazda and Jag would look like...

Btw, I was told that the target weight of the Model S is around 3,800lbs, 1,500lbs lighter than the Karma!
 

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SoCalGuy said:
Btw, I was told that the target weight of the Model S is around 3,800lbs, 1,500lbs lighter than the Karma!
It takes a lot of lbs. and $$ to alleviate range anxiety...
 

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SoCalGuy said:
Btw, I was told that the target weight of the Model S is around 3,800lbs, 1,500lbs lighter than the Karma!
That will definitely not be the weight of the 85 kWh-version, but of the one with the smallest pack.

The Karma is the more expensive cars, but it has only a very short options list. If you choose the top of the line Model S, with things that are standard on a Karma Ecosport, like bigger wheels, rear-view camera, etc, the prices are much closer to each other than I expected.

Still, I do like the Model S as an initiative and I hope it becomes succesfull.

I do not expect Fisker and Musk will ever get together, but I do expect each of them to merge with one of the bigger players eventually, because of their technological know-how, but also because it provides those big car companies with an opportunity to cut average CO2-emissions for all their cars. In Europe they will get hefty fines - hundreds of millions - if they don't meet certain maximum CO2-levels, and companies like Daimler AG are not doing well at this at the moment. Buying a company like Fisker or Tesla may turn out to be cheaper.

The maximum allowed CO2-output for companies producing more than 100,000 cars will drop over the next few years. Here's the limit for 2012:

 

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Dutch said:
SoCalGuy said:
Btw, I was told that the target weight of the Model S is around 3,800lbs, 1,500lbs lighter than the Karma!
That will definitely not be the weight of the 85 kWh-version, but of the one with the smallest pack.
Right, the 85kWh version is expected to weigh about 400 lbs more, maybe less. So, that's still at least 1000 lbs less than the Karma. Tesla is reported to be using 3.1AH 18650 cells in the 85kWh pack, versus 2.2AH cells in the 40kWh pack, so while there are more cells, there are not that many more cells. The higher power cells weight penalty is less than 4% per cell, btw.
 

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Last night I was futzing around on edmunds.com and configured a Tesla the way I'd like it, since I noticed it was possible to do so there now. The price came out to $99,500. I put in my Karma order before the recent price jump, so, for under $6k more, I get much nicer styling and elimination of range anxiety, and I give up interior space (including cargo space) and a big chunk of electric-only range. Also, of the money I would save on the Tesla, I would lose a bunch of it again to a fast charger (which I would no doubt want).

I also get the Karma a lot sooner than I would get the Tesla. I think/hope. :D
 
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