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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Success is measured in many ways, but I think it is fair to say Tesla has been successful with their model to date. Why is that model more successful than Fisker? The fisker is a better looking car (everyone I think can agree on that) and the technologies are similar enough to the general public (environmentally friendly, "battery", "hybrid" etc. etc).

Tesla has thousands of orders. Fisker has struggled to sell 2000 cars.

It scares me to not have service available (a la the Tesla model) in my city should something happen to the car. Tesla buyers obviously are not afraid of that.
 

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EX:Shadow/Canyon #324
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Success is measured in many ways, but I think it is fair to say Tesla has been successful with their model to date. Why is that model more successful than Fisker? The fisker is a better looking car (everyone I think can agree on that) and the technologies are similar enough to the general public (environmentally friendly, "battery", "hybrid" etc. etc).

Tesla has thousands of orders. Fisker has struggled to sell 2000 cars.

It scares me to not have service available (a la the Tesla model) in my city should something happen to the car. Tesla buyers obviously are not afraid of that.
As has been posted previously on multiple threads, the only fair comparison is the first car from Tesla (Roadster) vs. the first car from Fisker (Karma). Tesla sold 2000 Roadsters in 4 years. Fisker sold 2000 Karmas in 1 year.

Once Fisker gets a significant capital investment from a strategic partner and is able to move forward with their second/volume model (the Atlantic), they should be able to replace any dealers who have bailed during Fisker's financial problems.
 

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what you have to keep in mind is, that tesla does not only have Elon Musk: From the very beginning of the Tesla story they have looked out for strategic partners in car business not only to collect money but making synergy benefits in development and selling components ( battery packs etc. ) and they finally found Toyota and Mercedes Benz. Fisker made their way through private investors, who now show some cautioness to make further investments. But Fisker needs fresh money for the Atlantic to come out; otherwise the Fisker story would die. I wonder why Fisker is not talking to BMW or Volkswagen, because they - now - have confessed, that only plug-in-hybrid is the technology for the nearer future. So watch the outcoming BMW i3 and i8, all equipped with a plug-in-hybrid. Same are the plans of VW and Audi! And the both have the money for such an investment.
 

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Axel, prior of reaching out to get renminbi, they traveled through Europe to get the major brands investing Euros in Fisker... with no success, as we all know jet.


Stefan
German Karma Forum
www.karma-forum.de
 

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what you have to keep in mind is, that tesla does not only have Elon Musk: From the very beginning of the Tesla story they have looked out for strategic partners in car business not only to collect money but making synergy benefits in development and selling components ( battery packs etc. ) and they finally found Toyota and Mercedes Benz. Fisker made their way through private investors, who now show some cautioness to make further investments. But Fisker needs fresh money for the Atlantic to come out; otherwise the Fisker story would die. I wonder why Fisker is not talking to BMW or Volkswagen, because they - now - have confessed, that only plug-in-hybrid is the technology for the nearer future. So watch the outcoming BMW i3 and i8, all equipped with a plug-in-hybrid. Same are the plans of VW and Audi! And the both have the money for such an investment.
I think this comes back to Katie's first point. What, aside from design, does fisker have to offer a BMW or Volkswagen?
 

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I think this comes back to Katie's first point. What, aside from design, does fisker have to offer a BMW or Volkswagen?
~2,000 customers with taste, deep pockets and a passion for driving.

On the design point, it DOES matter. Most people I know don't enjoy buying ugly cars. Besides, designs are just as much "Intellectual Property" as a new battery technology. Don't think so? Ask the lawyers at Apple and Samsung.

Why, aside from his fortune, is Elon such an asset? Every time he speaks, I want to punch him in the throat. I like Tesla and their vision / products but seriously, Elon is a giant tool-bag.
 

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I think this comes back to Katie's first point. What, aside from design, does fisker have to offer a BMW or Volkswagen?
1. The ability to engineer a chassis that handles as well as a BMW M5 even though the batteries and PHEV drivetrain result in a vehicle with a 5300 lb. curb weight.

2. A PHEV drivetrain that is a completely seamless integration of battery and ICE/generator power and regenerative and friction braking.

3. The ability to package all those components inside a body and interior that accomodates 4 people while looking as dramatic as any concept car out there.

To look at it from the other side, what automotive engineering innovation capability does Tesla have, other than to package, temperature condition and charge commodity form factor Li-ion cells? Maybe display and user interface? Certainly not chassis or handling, which is sub-standard compared to Fisker and BMW. Mercedes and Toyota get battery packs from Tesla. Period.
 

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Tesla's main value is packaging and temperature control of batteries. If you look at design, handling etc the Model S falls short. The Karma seems to be the complete package where as the Model S seems to be a car with a really big battery, a large screen, and a powerful electric motor. I do not think that Tesla technology is that unique. Coda has done something similar with its batteries, and the Coda performance is pretty decent as well. Pretty much a "poor man's" Model S (powertrain wise). The technology does not exist to make the Model S the "no compromise" car Tesla claims it to be. Maybe in 5-10 years or so. Right now though, if I need to get somewhere and I am on a schedule; the choice is obvious. I have enough "surprises" in my life, I don't need my car not having enough range to get home (vampire load/cold weather/hot weather) being one of them. I really have no desire to be forced to drive 50mph on the highway, stressed out with no heat or ac trying to find a plug,to get home. I would much rather drive in Sport mode or even take the long way home,. Now that is relaxing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Smoothiperators post his it on the head for me. I agree with him, but that's it. Why is Tesla succeeding if this is true? Fisher needs to get that message out? What are they missing?
 

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Smoothiperators post his it on the head for me. I agree with him, but that's it. Why is Tesla succeeding if this is true? Fisher needs to get that message out? What are they missing?
Tesla has done a great job in engaging customers and throwing events/parties etc. These events tend to bind customers to the company and make customers feel like they are part of Tesla; thus supporting them regardless of the shortcomings of their product. Tesla is also on their second car, and this car is more mainstream than their first product. The Karma for all intensive purposes is a 6 figure car, same with the Roadster. The Model S starts at 50-60k.

There are some "green" perks that are missing from the Karma (i.e. carpool stickers). I know people who purchased a Model S purely for the carpool stickers, they would have purchased a Karma if it was eligible. The main idea is that the Karma is the proof of concept car for Fisker. The 2nd product (Atlantic) will be the car that determines the "success" of Fisker.
 

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~2,000 customers with taste, deep pockets and a passion for driving.

On the design point, it DOES matter. Most people I know don't enjoy buying ugly cars. Besides, designs are just as much "Intellectual Property" as a new battery technology. Don't think so? Ask the lawyers at Apple and Samsung.

Why, aside from his fortune, is Elon such an asset? Every time he speaks, I want to punch him in the throat. I like Tesla and their vision / products but seriously, Elon is a giant tool-bag.
Ok but fisker has done design for BMW before. Why wouldn't they just ask him to pen a design vs buy out his company?

Why does 2000 customers (compared to their hundreds of thousands) with "good taste" get them exactly? More cars that they didn't directly sell to support? Does the good taste somehow put money in said company's pocket? I'm trying to be objective here.

As for the rest of it, I'd spin my wheels arguing on a fisker enthusiast forum, so I'll just sit back and let the market do the talking. Time will tell what cars consumers will want to buy and which companies other companies will feel offer enough to want to work with them.
 

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Musk >>> Henrik. Big difference. Also, if you look at senior management talent, most Tesla folks are dot-com/SV types whereas the Fisker guys hailed largely from Detroit. Another big difference.
 

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You are correct. The problems FA has to overcome are branding and company longevity. When people stop me to say, "What a beautiful car - what is it?" And I reply, "Fisker," they say:

1. "Whaa?"
2. "Didn't the founder leave the company?" or, my personal favorite . . .
3. "Don't they make scissors?"

On the other hand, Tesla (as a car) has been around for a decade. It's practically a household name - and not because people collect coils.
 

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Musk >>> Henrik. Big difference. Also, if you look at senior management talent, most Tesla folks are dot-com/SV types whereas the Fisker guys hailed largely from Detroit. Another big difference.
I agree with your second point. Not entirely sure about Musk >> Henrik point, however.

If Henrik could afford to invest $70+M of his own money into FA, we would probably be looking at a different situation right now. In terms of management style, Musk, coming from SV start-up background, is better suited to running a start-up was pretty naive about the car business, whereas HF was much more experienced in the car business but did not appreciate the nuances of managing the growth of a start-up. But don't forget that we are still in the early chapters of both companies and things may turn out very differently than they appear to at the moment.

Either way, a lot business school courses are going to use the tale of the two electric car companies as case studies in many years to come.
 

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As much as I love my Fisker Karma and worry about not having a warranty, I must say that Fisker Automotive is reaping what it sowed. In the beginning they treated us with a standoff-ish attitude and still fail to let us know anything about the company and the car. I get e-mails from Tesla due to my Model S switched now to a Model X reservation. Back to Fisker, I don't even know whether my car's software is the latest version or not. They never created an owner's website. Need I go on? They failed to support their customers and their dealerships and therefore the marketplace had zero confidence in them. The only people who would buy the car now are those that can treat it as a disposable commodity. I am looking forward to them going bankrupt so that someone can start hacking the Command Center to give us the car that was promised to us and not have to worry about voiding my warranty.
 

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I get a kick from all this comparison talk. Why does a Fisker owner (or anyone luxury purchase) have to justify thier pruchase. Success if measured in the value you recieve from the purchase. I think anyone who buys a 90K+ sedan for the reliability and value has no sense when 22K Accord, Passat or Altima would do just fine. At this price range we buy becuase we can and have an emotinal desire for the vehicle -- 1-performance, 2-looks and 3-value come to mind, most purchases are happy when they get two of three and unhappy when they think they got one of three -- so what do you think you got from your Telsa or Fisker?
 
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