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I have compared 3 Fisker Karma's ranging in vin and without a doubt some are performing much faster than others. I was very confused and asked Fisker Automotive current people and also LORMAX and the only explanation that they said it could be is software update. I was so surprised that the car can perform faster speed with software update. Also, with all the horrible and weak reviews our beloved Fisker Karma has gotten, why isn't any smart engineers in Silicon Valley or anywhere working on making the BEST KICK BUTT software that will beat Tesla and its relatives? Why can't someone make a bigger screen and size to get it custom to our needs? come on engineers, put on your hats and get going. I wish I knew as much about this as I do my field of work and we would be in good shape.... WAKE UP SOFTWARE ENGINEERS:idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:
 

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Ah if it was only that easy. This has all been discussed elsewhere on the forum...

First, you'd need the software to start with. The software the dealers and myself have to load onto the cars is already compiled and not something a software engineer can really use easily. Something tells me Fisker HQ isn't going to hand out their source code.

Second, lets say someone does get ahold of the software somehow. More speed means more electric power needed. More electric power means more heat. Can the existing cooling system in the vehicle handle it? Would you want to risk your battery and inverters for a little extra time off your 0-60? Can the RDM and traction motor splines handle it?

Then lastly, cost. Lets say the software is made. Lets say the coolant system is beefed up to handle the heat. Lets say the RDM and traction motors are rebuilt to be able to handle the extra power. How much will all that cost?

Harleyguy and myself have said it before, we'd love to see software come out. It'll end up being extra work for us both :)
 

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I can decompile the source, rewrite and re-tag the code but the time/cost/potential profit is not there.. At least I do not see it..
The number of people that want to compromise their warranty to make their car faster is very limited... Maybe 20 out of 2500 cars. I've talked to Lormax about reworking the original hotpack but there is just no money in it..
My definition of warranty expressed here is: "The reliability and longevity of the fisker karma".
(I know that FA is not providing any warranty on our cars!) and now that there is no potential warranty the numbers dwindle even lower. Modifying the inverters is fine but you are overextending the small 20kwh battery pack.. there are two ways of increasing performance.. You need at least a 40kwh pack, so doubling the size of the battery so you can draw more power out of it or to increase the size of the generator head to a 280kwh motor.. Then you run into the torque requirement at 3400rpm.. the current motor is only putting out 250ft-lbs of torque max at 3400rpm..
The engineering time for updating the software is not worth it.. So I spend 6 months developing a revision to the software.. there are 2000 potential customers.. of which price would motivate how many of those 2000 would commit.. so lets say 20% would pay $1200 for a software update... that would be amazing profit.. but we are looking at maybe 10% would pay $250 for an update.. a tech needs to install it.. so you have at least $100 going to the tech... what would that update contain.. The current software is super stable and reliable as is..
so we make a hot-pack to push the inverters and battery pack module a little extra.. Well… being an owner of a Fisker Karma myself... I wouldn’t install the software on my car.. I am to the point where I just want the car to function..
If I can do anything to increase the reliability of the car then that would be a reason to do an update but I don't see that as an imminent need. My car has been running great for 11 months.. knocking on the reclaimed laminate wood.. most cars have been running good after the last update. the CIU still needs updating.. but those are just aesthetics. up vs down and all the things the famous Brian posted in his review..
 

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Hello, I just get a Baseline 520 software update today and the check engine light is still on! in the service doesnt know what does it mean and how to cancell! the software
update took 6 hours and they didnt solve my problem! any suggestion would be appreciated! thanks
 

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Hello, I just get a Baseline 520 software update today and the check engine light is still on! in the service doesnt know what does it mean and how to cancell! the software
update took 6 hours and they didnt solve my problem! any suggestion would be appreciated! thanks
6 hours that s crazy it takes 1.5 hours to install 520 . The software won't fix check engine light it all depends what the codes are. What csp did you use they can always call Fisker tech support for help with the code . Or you can post the code here for review . Without proper information there is no way we can help .
 

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Thank you Harleyguy for the quick reply.
I had to change the 12V battery and then came up this codes.
People said on forums need a new software update,and then the problem will be solved, but not.
At this time I have 2 codes: P0A80 AND P0A7B.
Thanks all helps
 

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The digital trouble codes you are reporting are typically associated with a bad HV battery. If the date code of your HV battery S/N is under 1212, it's likely that your battery was manufactured at the Livonia Michigan plant where they had prismatic cell leakage problems.

Best to have your HV battery scanned by a CSP service center to be sure.
 

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The digital trouble codes you are reporting are typically associated with a bad HV battery. If the date code of your HV battery S/N is under 1212, it's likely that your battery was manufactured at the Livonia Michigan plant where they had prismatic cell leakage problems.

Best to have your HV battery scanned by a CSP service center to be sure.
how can you tell it's under 1212 -- my number is : 0A09-1129-02u-404025-30303 : which number is it ?
 

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Your HV battery date code is 1129. This means it was manufactured during the 29th week of 2011. That would translate to July 18, 2011. The 0A09 prefix means that the battery was manufactured at the Livonia, Michigan plant - as opposed to A123's plant in Korea.

Because of battery field failures, most notably notably during a Consumer Report's road test in early March 2012, there was a Livonia HV battery Replacement Program jointly announced by A123 and Fisker Automotive on March 26, 2012 (which is date code 1212).

Although all Livonia batteries with date codes prior to 1212 are suspect, it is my understanding that not all of the 2000 batteries produced at Livonia were actually defective. I know owners who are not having any problems with pre-clean point batteries.

This is a guess on my part but based on the fact that they were running three manufacturing lines for Fisker batteries, and since only one of those lines had cell alignment problems, there is a two thirds probability that any given battery is OK.

However, if an owner has a Livonia HV battery with a date code prior to 1212 AND is having range or DTC issues, the battery should be scanned by a CSP service center to determine which module might be bad.

Modules can be replaced by the CSPs.
 

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@Ira - thanks for the detailed explanation. Just out of curiosity, did a failure of Livonia-produced batteries always result in a completely dead Karma like the Consumer Reports situation? Or was that a different issue.

Seems like the experience of Harleyguy and FiskerPhilly and others over the last few years has helped shape the future of Karma maintenance. Is it true that replacing a module is how old Fisker should have trained their dealer network to handle the original battery issues that Fisker forced A123 to resolve with entirely new battery packs?
 

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@WATTGAS, the answer to your first question about the failure of Livonia-produced batteries always resulting in a completely dead Karma is "no." In the Consumer Reports test, their Karma experienced a CEL due to a HV battery failure. When they stopped the vehicle, the PRND quit functioning. After the car was flat-bedded back to the dealership and the battery was replaced, it is my understanding that they did not experience any further battery issues. However, because of the early software rev and some quality control problems, the magazine gave the car a failing grade. Read the full article here:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...er-karma-plug-in-hybrid-breaks-down/index.htm

Back to your original question. I have heard that it's possible - in a worst-case scenario - that a "Livonia Leaker" could result in the entire battery system shutting down. In that event, the car would coast to a stop. (However, I do not know if this has ever happened with production cars. Perhaps someone else can weigh in on that.)

The more common scenario for a leaking battery is a CEL, one or more stored DTCs, reduced range and extended charging times. The HV battery's BECM monitors cell deviations and will first generate a generic code like P0A7B, which causes the CEL to illuminate, and will also store a cell-specific DTC like P1B6F, which an owner can read with an inexpensive OBDII scanner. However, you won't know which cell in which module is faulty, or the overall health of the battery, unless you have the car scanned by one of the pros. (BTW: It takes three occurrences of a DTC to illuminate the CEL. This was probably done by the designers to avoid triggering repeated CELs with temporary cell issues as can happen when the Karma battery has been off the charger for an extended period of time, and the cells have not been "leveled.")

With regard to the module replacement issue, I can only offer an opinion as to why A123 and Fisker Automotive decided to replace full packs instead of modules back in March 2012. Besides contractual issues between the companies concerning defective batteries, there were logistical, economic, safety and legal reasons for replacing the entire packs. For example, a customer paying over $100K for a Karma in those days might put up with one module being replaced, but if other modules developed leaking cells, Fisker would have a serious Lemon Law problem on its hands. Also, replacing modules is a lot more difficult and potentially dangerous than replacing an entire pack. Service techs at dealers were not trained to take batteries apart. For that reason, service departments were not given the module replacement option under Fisker's original "Warranty Policy and Procedures Manual."

All that being said, if an owner has a "Livonia Leaker," he or she should get it scanned and get the battery repaired or replaced, if necessary. In that worst-case scenario mentioned earlier, my concern would be the risk that the entire Karma would shut down without warning.
 

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From what I understand A123 wanted to have the modules replaced by a field technician or a Fisker technician . Fisker wanted all the defective batteries replaced . Seems both companies lost out you see the end results .
Before Fisker went out of business I don't remember the exact time A123'was sending out a field engineer to replace the EDM that's the complete High Voltage and Low Voltage relays AKA number 5 contact .
That's when I learned how to do basic battery repair . I kept in touch with Jim after we met and still keep in touch with each other . Jim is actually the one who was my mentor when it came to Module replacement he pointed me in the right direction and in turn I helped other Fisker tech start battery repairs . Joe and myself were repairing batteries long before anyone at Fisker even thought about battery repairs . And I'm still learning how to cope with battery repairs .

One thing I forgot to mention yes a bad module can shut down the car making it impossible to drive. If the HV battery has a fault called and isolation fault . What that is a module act sully leaking and causing a voltage leak to ground basically a internal short . We have a fairly easy way to check that using a Fluke meter we check for voltage present at the MSD that's the HV battery fuse if more the 5 volts present it has a isolation fault .
The battery needs to be torn down and check each module for a leak . The last one I did had 157 volts at MSD and 3 faulty modules.
 

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@Ira and @Harleyguy - thanks for the very detailed answers. I really like reading about the history and technical inner workings of the Karma.
 

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@Ira and @Harleyguy - thanks for the very detailed answers. I really like reading about the history and technical inner workings of the Karma.
You're very welcome. :)

I have the same curiosity . . . since I intend to keep this incredible car for a very long time.

Good Karma.jpg

With that in mind, and with 3-4 years of operational history behind us, I've been told that a HV battery that's still performing well today should continue to perform well for years to come. Putting it another way, if a battery hasn't leaked by now, it probably won't develop a leak in the future. I've also been told that our batteries could remain serviceable for 20 years - although we won't get the same range due to normal Li-Ion chemistry changes over time.
 

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One interest i have in liue of the comments made, will we be able to extent both the life and range by updating the pouches with newer , longer lasting, and bettery chemestry with the same electronics for battery management?
 

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So far from what I've seen if a HV battery hasn't failed by now it's a good chance it won't . We have at least four demo cars on the road and that's what I'm basing it on. I still have a good number of an original owners as customers that haven't had any problems .
Also customer cars that have shown between one and two bad modules that amount hasn't increased in those cars .
 

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@Nin ja, rumor has it that the 2016 Karma will have the improved battery you are talking about.
Lets hope we can retrofit at a reasonable cost an 80mi battery would be so welcomed -- I like stealth mode and with the powersoruce software upgrades, the ability to control when and when i get to use it , makes it more appealing. Lets hope this and some other needed improvements come our way — these beautiful cars have been the butt of jokes for far too long!
 

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@Nin ja, rumor has it that the 2016 Karma will have the improved battery you are talking about.
Lets hope we can retrofit at a reasonable cost an 80mi battery would be so welcomed -- I like stealth mode and with the powersoruce software upgrades, the ability to control when and when i get to use it , makes it more appealing. Lets hope this and some other needed improvements come our way — these beautiful cars have been the butt of jokes for far too long!
I am pretty excited about the higher capacity HV batteries also, but the bigger the battery gets, the less useful the ICE becomes, and most of us will end up lugging around 600+ of ICE and Generator that we rarely ever use. The 260 HP/180KW Genset makes a lot sense with a 20 KWH battery, but with a 80 KWH battery, not so much, IMHO.

I know this is a big ask, but it would be great if there is parallel development on a much smaller and lighter Genset, or just a replacement battery pack to replace the ICE completely.
 
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