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Please post any pictures of the interior and rear of he car. We lack those.

Do we know anything about the specs?

I know it's still a chevy engine, BMW is doing the charging (whatever that means), we don't know paint colors, interior options, accessories, 0-60, wheel options, and on.

Can we list information as we find out here or on 1 thread.
 

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Price with Options

hmm, did not ask, i was told the price would not be more then 150K ;-) should help with the value of the FY2012
I took notes when the Karma sale rep called to today.

The based price will not exceed $150,000. There is another $8,000 to $9,000 in options: the two standard colors are black and silver, the 6 other colors are options. There are two standard interiors with 4 optional interiors costing between $900 and $1,900. Optional brake calipers are $900.

The 0 to 60 speed in sports mode increased from 6.4 seconds to 5.5 seconds. The GM engine is the same as what we have in the Fisker. Software updates are expected to be over the air.

Battery is the same 50 miles. However, I was told (not by the sale rep) that the second generation cells used can fast charge the battery to 20 minutes. The battery range is not affected by heat or cold like the first generation batteries.

Sam
 

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Battery is the same 50 miles. However, I was told (not by the sale rep) that the second generation cells used can fast charge the battery to 20 minutes. The battery range is not affected by heat or cold like the first generation batteries.
Sam
Fast charge is nice but not essential for our Karmas (as it is for Teslas and other PEVs). We have an on-board fast charger under the hood.

There is even third party accessory that allows our charger to operate while the car is parked and idling. Given the choice between having to find a fast-charging outlet or simply fast-charging wherever you happen to be is a no-brainer.
 

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Fast charge is nice but not essential for our Karmas (as it is for Teslas and other PEVs). We have an on-board fast charger under the hood.

There is even third party accessory that allows our charger to operate while the car is parked and idling. Given the choice between having to find a fast-charging outlet or simply fast-charging wherever you happen to be is a no-brainer.
It's great to have the DC fast charging option, but in the 4.5 years I have owned my Karma, I have seen exactly ONE ChaDemo station, and I have never seen a J1772 DC Combo station. Without the public stations, having the DC fast charging capability is not particularly useful. The ICE-powered Genset, on the other hand, can supply 9-15KW charging power without any stress to the ICE, pretty much anywhere (obviously not recommended in an enclosed unventilated space).

Obviously it would be great to have both options, but the Genset is pretty handy to have.
 

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It's great to have the DC fast charging option, but in the 4.5 years I have owned my Karma, I have seen exactly ONE ChaDemo station, and I have never seen a J1772 DC Combo station.
Really? Fab, you're back in San Fran, right? Attached is a map of the current CCS DC Combo stations in just the bay area.

I fully expect the Revero to use CCS, BTW, but I agree with you that fast charging for a car with an onboard range extender isn't nearly as critical as it is for a pure BEV.

Brent
 

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The salesperson you probably spoke to meant 80% capacity in 20 minutes. There is a pretty significant taper curve when DC charging. Basically "x" to get to 80% and "(x)2" to get to 90% etc.

So lets say the capacity of the pack is same (if it is 50 ideal miles as stated above). Essentially 18.1kWh of usable capacity or 14.5kWh 80% usable.

If we take 400wh/mi (45 real world miles on 18.1kWh at 100% usable SOC) you get 45 miles. 80% of that is 36 miles or so recaptured in 20 minutes. Not too shabby. Essentially .7 miles/min or a little less than 40kw charge rate or about 1/4 that of a Tesla Supercharger.
 

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So lets say the capacity of the pack is same ... Essentially 18.1kWh of usable capacity
I think this is the key question for me. I'm anxious to hear if it's the same battery capacity or greater. I know that a lot of second-gen EVs are using different cells and attaining much higher capacities in the same form factor. Tesla has done it, and BMW is doing it now with the i3, going from 22kWh to 33kWh with the same exterior battery pack dimensions. If Karma can match the same proportional increases as BMW it would go from 20.1kWh to 30.15kWh total capacity and from 18.1kWh to 27.15kWh usable. That would be an increase of 50% over the current usable capacity, and would presumably allow an increase from 32 to 48 miles in EPA EV-only range.

As to the comment about "20 minutes" I agree with PowerSource that would get you to about 80%. A friend of mine in Atlanta is an engineer by trade and disposition, has an i3, and a lot of free time, so he put together the following info about fast charging, including a plot diagram showing the charging curve for his BMW i3 on a CCS fast charger. Since the Revero will have similar capacity, and as I understand it the charging mechanisms are also from BMW, the i3 curve is probably relevant to the Revero too:
http://electrifyatlanta.com/wp/?page_id=357
 

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Really? Fab, you're back in San Fran, right? Attached is a map of the current CCS DC Combo stations in just the bay area.
Most of the CCS DC Combo stations appear to be at Whole Foods or train stations, not my usual hangouts. Maybe some of the $2B VW Diesel settlement will be used to expand the DC charging network.
 

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I think this is the key question for me. I'm anxious to hear if it's the same battery capacity or greater. I know that a lot of second-gen EVs are using different cells and attaining much higher capacities in the same form factor.
When I spoke to them, they did not mention any increase in battery capacity.
 

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When I spoke to them, they did not mention any increase in battery capacity.
Question: If KA were to make significant changes to battery capacity or generator output, wouldn't they have to re-certify the car with the EPA?
 

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Question: If KA were to make significant changes to battery capacity or generator output, wouldn't they have to re-certify the car with the EPA?
I would think they have to do that anyway because this is a 2017 model year car and the requirements have changed since 2012. I also vaguely remember (not entirely sure about this one) that Fisker got some waivers from EPA/AQMD that would have expired by now.
 

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Deep Ocean in ATL
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As much as I love my Karma, I don't see any compelling reason to pay $150K for a replacement. If this is true, Karma Automotive may be in a very rude awakening. My Model X was a $138 fully loaded with a 90kw/hour battery, 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, 250 miles of range... and a internal CIU which is highly intuitive and functional -- not to mention Autopilot and host of other driver assist functions. Hope what being reported is incorrect.
 

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Pricing comparison to Tesla X is one way to look at it. Another is to measure Revero cost vs Tesla model 3, for which I lined up early one morning to reserve 2.

Even with options, it's looking like I could easily have 3 of those (maybe even 4?!) for the price of one Revero, and No ICE to maintain in any of them. And if I need more stylish wheels, I still have the 2012 (with diamond dust paint).
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Pricing comparison to Tesla X is one way to look at it. Another is to measure Revero cost vs Tesla model 3, for which I lined up early one morning to reserve 2.

Even with options, it's looking like I could easily have 3 of those (maybe even 4?!) for the price of one Revero, and No ICE to maintain in any of them. And if I need more stylish wheels, I still have the 2012 (with diamond dust paint).
I plan on keeping my fy2012 basically for its artistic value and pedigree - warts and all. As another exotic i would love to own a karma sunset and would plunk down 150 . I would consider an atlantic verse model 3 as an every day , but only after the second year of production.
 

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Pricing comparison to Tesla X is one way to look at it. Another is to measure Revero cost vs Tesla model 3, for which I lined up early one morning to reserve 2.

Even with options, it's looking like I could easily have 3 of those (maybe even 4?!) for the price of one Revero, and No ICE to maintain in any of them. And if I need more stylish wheels, I still have the 2012 (with diamond dust paint).
That's not a fair comparison, IMHO. Even in 2012, there were cheaper alternatives to the Karma, specifically, the Chevy Volt, which used a very similar Serial Hybrid powertrain and it was about 1/2 the price of a new Karma, and was available long before the Karma started to ship. But I would guess that no one who ultimately bought a Karma was trying to decide between it and a Chevy Volt.

The same holds true with the Tesla III, which (as great a car as it doubtlessly will be) will not have the same level of fit and finish, or the pure emotional appeal that the Karma or Revero have.

I think the Revero and Tesla III are both great cars, but each appeals to a different audience. I doubt that you will find the same individuals shopping both at the same time.
 

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I have heard of people shopping used Karma's with Model III. They are close enough in price.

M3 imo is closer to Karma than the Volt just because of the architecture (RWD, rear weight bias etc). Volt is a FWD vehicle and does not have the driving dynamics of a RWD vehicle.
 

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With a the Range Extender and a 50 mile range battery, fast charging seems inconsequential. Why stop and charge for 20 -30 mins to gain 35 - 40 miles of range (80% of 50 miles). It make sense on the PBEV (Tesla), but not on the Karma. The Tesla Super chargers gain nearly 200 miles in 30 mins. -- SOC dependent ([email protected]). I never would stop with my Karma to charge since the ICE, is sufficient for long distance driving @ ~26mpg.

I was surprised the hear that the same GM ICE will be used. I understood GM had discontinued that engine. I expected an improvement in the CIU, but a little concerned on the $150K price -- good for our 2012 Karma's resale value.
 

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I don't recall seeing the significance of the Revero name before but you might want to take a close look at the name rEVERo. Ring a bell?
 
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