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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just read the press release here:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...-officially-reveals-the-revero-300312314.html


It claims the following:

While the look is familiar, much of the technology has changes, including a completely redesigned infotainment system and super-charging capabilities.

I am quite skeptical that the Karma will be capable of using superchargers. Lets say the pack range even doubled to 40 kWh a continuous 3C rate is still not possible without some wizadry to prevent overheating the battery. If they are using 20kWh battery that would be an astonishing 6C continuous which is definitely not possible.

I highly doubt that Tesla would allow Karma to use the superchargers. Perhaps they are referring to a different quick charging system (i.e. DC-Combo or CHAdeMO). None of these standards are referred to as supercharging but the more generic term DC Fast Charging. Superchargers and Supercharging capabilities are a Tesla specific standard.

Very interesting they would use that terminology.
 

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While the look is familiar, much of the technology has changes, including a completely redesigned infotainment system and super-charging capabilities.

...

I highly doubt that Tesla would allow Karma to use the superchargers. Perhaps they are referring to a different quick charging system (i.e. DC-Combo or CHAdeMO). None of these standards are referred to as supercharging but the more generic term DC Fast Charging. Superchargers and Supercharging capabilities are a Tesla specific standard.

Very interesting they would use that terminology.
Tesla uses the term "Supercharging" (single word). The press release called it "super-charging" (two hyphenated words). I think they are using the term more generically and not referring to the Tesla network, which would most likely not allow cars not made by Tesla from using their network.
 

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Tesla uses the term "Supercharging" (single word). The press release called it "super-charging" (two hyphenated words). I think they are using the term more generically and not referring to the Tesla network, which would most likely not allow cars not made by Tesla from using their network.
I agree, and I think it's a little bit clever and cheeky to use the same term. It'll certainly cause confusion in the marketplace but I think it will allow KA to leverage a lot of the fast-charging awareness that Tesla has built. Outside of EV-philes I doubt many people know what "DC Fast Charging" or "Level 3" is, but Tesla has done a good job popularizing the idea of super charging to the masses. I have no doubt it was a carefully chosen phrase.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I agree, and I think it's a little bit clever and cheeky to use the same term. It'll certainly cause confusion in the marketplace but I think it will allow KA to leverage a lot of the fast-charging awareness that Tesla has built. Outside of EV-philes I doubt many people know what "DC Fast Charging" or "Level 3" is, but Tesla has done a good job popularizing the idea of super charging to the masses. I have no doubt it was a carefully chosen phrase.

Interesting perspective in that instead of innovating; creating marketplace confusion is seen as being clever. I wholeheartedly disagree. If they are using CHAdeMO or DC-Combo they should call it that. Not try to confuse customers based on semantics. Very sleazy marketing tactics.
 

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I agree, but they can do better.
It could have been like

... supports super-charging, using the nationwide available chademo network...

This would take the existing marketing story into the reality, but sounding like 'it's standard and available'
 

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Why can't tesla just hire Henrik to design a new Model S :)

Just raise the value of car by $15-20K and I'll be happy! Charging...it is what it is.
 

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I agree, but they can do better.
It could have been like

... supports super-charging, using the nationwide available chademo network...

This would take the existing marketing story into the reality, but sounding like 'it's standard and available'
As I understand it, the Revero is going to support the SAE "CCS Combo" charging standard and not CHAdeMO. CCS is what the BMW i3, VW eGolf, Chevy Spark and upcoming Chevy Bolt will use among others. It's the standard for virtually every EV automaker outside of Japan and Korea.

While CHAdeMO is still more prevalent in many places I think this is a good call. In Atlanta we had one CCS charger in the state at the beginning of 2015 and now there are 60 or 70, which is way more than there are Tesla Superchargers and getting close to even with CHAdeMO.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
As I understand it, the Revero is going to support the SAE "CCS Combo" charging standard and not CHAdeMO. CCS is what the BMW i3, VW eGolf, Chevy Spark and upcoming Chevy Bolt will use among others. It's the standard for virtually every EV automaker outside of Japan and Korea.

While CHAdeMO is still more prevalent in many places I think this is a good call. In Atlanta we had one CCS charger in the state at the beginning of 2015 and now there are 60 or 70, which is way more than there are Tesla Superchargers and getting close to even with CHAdeMO.
CHAdeMO works off CAN communication, which is similar to the way the Tesla Superchargers work. CCS works off Pulse-width modulation to communicate with the charge station and requires a special card for communication. There are many variants of CCS (like Europe, North America and China use different variants). CHAdeMO is the same standard worldwide.

In Europe Tesla uses Superchargers with a Mennekes port. Really no need for the extra two pins for J1772 variant of DC-Combo. Would be great if everything went to Mennekes. So literally you can use CHAdeMO with Mennekes but not with the high-powered DC-Combo variant of Mennekes.

Model S/X can use CHAdeMO with a 500 dollar adapter.

Just as an FYI
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Oh yea forgot to mention... The CHAdeMO spec is also bi-directional meaning that you can output Vehicle to Vehicle.

I.e. say you have a CHAdeMO capable Nissan Leaf or Model S that needs a charge- the spec allows for output of DC from the CHAdeMO port to charge another vehicle.

Same with Vehicle to Grid (i.e your car can act as a backup generator or power source for your home). Pretty cool stuff
 

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Oh yea forgot to mention... The CHAdeMO spec is also bi-directional meaning that you can output Vehicle to Vehicle.

I.e. say you have a CHAdeMO capable Nissan Leaf or Model S that needs a charge- the spec allows for output of DC from the CHAdeMO port to charge another vehicle.

Same with Vehicle to Grid (i.e your car can act as a backup generator or power source for your home). Pretty cool stuff
That would mean that you have to have a CHAdeMO (why the odd capitalization, BTW?) interface at home, which most people would not bother installing at home. On the positive side, you could use the battery in the car for power arbitrage (charge late at night for cheap and use during the day when the power costs up to 5x more) if you car is at home. Maybe that would pay for the DC charging set up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
That would mean that you have to have a CHAdeMO (why the odd capitalization, BTW?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO

CHAdeMO is an abbreviation of "CHArge de MOve", equivalent to "move using charge" or "move by charge". The name is also a pun drawn from O cha demo ikaga desuka in Japanese,[1] translating to English as "How about some tea?", referring to the time it would take to charge a car.[2


interface at home, which most people would not bother installing at home. On the positive side, you could use the battery in the car for power arbitrage (charge late at night for cheap and use during the day when the power costs up to 5x more) if you car is at home. Maybe that would pay for the DC charging set up.
V2V requires just plugging in a cord with the same interface. For home if you are installing a NEMA 14-50 you need an automatic switch to be installed at the same time that couples with the port. As simple as plugging in and having the protection of a UPS moving forward. The idea is a bit ahead of its time (i.e. having a car power your home). Tom Gage at AC Propulsion (the original innovators of the Tesla battery and powertrain system) has this as his main business (a company called EV GRID). I just like the ability to have a whole house backup which kinda cool. YMMV and something that is unique to this protocol. Whole House Battery Backup. pretty cool :)
 

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CHAdeMO charging is an option for Tesla owners who elect to buy the adapter. It is not included with their vehicles -- the J1772 and 220VAC-14-50 are. Tesla Supercharges are software authorized when the car is plugged in. So even should another vehicle used the same connector, the Tesla Supercharges would not function.

Also, my understanding is the CHAdeMO max is ~ 80 amps DC. Tesla's latest upgraded/latest Supercharges initially charge with 400VDC @ 200 amps -- decreasing amperage as the battery fills. I don't think Tesla is ready to authorize any other manufacturer at this point due to the 350,000 Model 3's on reserve. Although the Model 3 will not have Super Charging standard for all models, I would think Tesla needs to assess how many will elect to add the option and assess the demand on the SC system.
 

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I don't think Tesla is ready to authorize any other manufacturer at this point due to the 350,000 Model 3's on reserve. Although the Model 3 will not have Super Charging standard for all models, I would think Tesla needs to assess how many will elect to add the option and assess the demand on the SC system.
Tesla's supercharger patents are part of their open source licensed portfolio and anyone could use the technology to build their own charging network, and it may even be super, but obviously, Tesla can limit access to the network they have built up and are supporting. I also don't think that Karma is anywhere near the top of the list of companies that Tesla would be kind to.
 

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Tesla's supercharger patents are part of their open source licensed portfolio and anyone could use the technology to build their own charging network, and it may even be super, but obviously, Tesla can limit access to the network they have built up and are supporting. I also don't think that Karma is anywhere near the top of the list of companies that Tesla would be kind to.

Would agree Fab. Karma is way down the list would be my guess as well. Sorta Like Texas bidding on the Giga Factory while refusing to let Tesla sell cars in their state.
 

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Most charging stations here in germany use Typ2 means mennekes plugs. Is it possible to use one of the adapters from typ2/mennekes to our typ1 ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
2012 PowerSource infused Fisker Karma is capable of charging at Supercharger. Don't try this at home :)

And no we will not be selling a kit. Prototype only!
 

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Pretty cool! You have a Model S, right @PowerSource? I thought Tesla somehow validates which car is charging, so I'm surprised you could make it work with the Karma.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Pretty cool! You have a Model S, right @PowerSource? I thought Tesla somehow validates which car is charging, so I'm surprised you could make it work with the Karma.
That Karma is essentially a Model S underpinnings with Karma's clothing :). We took it on a coast to coast trip Orange County, CA to South Carolina and back recently. It is AWD (2 Tesla high powered drive units- one in front and one in back). 777 Horsepower you can watch our instagram to see some of the shots of it.

Problem with that car is we can't get all the power to the ground, the tires turn into an instant smoke machine. Need to figure out the traction control but would require more work than worth. Maybe for our one off.

We have another Karma with just the Tesla rear sub-clip as well which works pretty well as well as another Karma with stock 2012 Powertrain but with Tesla charging (hvjb, 10kw charger, chargeport etc) + our 40KW battery that works pretty well.

Prefer to charge off HPWC makes things a lot easier and is more than sufficient with ICE backup. It works well with the CHAdeMO adapter that Tesla vends. That is probably the path forward with regards to DC charging with these custom iteration of 2012 Karma + MYxxxx Model S.
 

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Wow, that is amazing. Now I know how you beat a Model S with your Karma in a race. Just put the Model S traction motors in the Karma! :)
 
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