Replacement battery cost?
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Also depends on if Fisker plans on offering upgrade deals based on the life left in the original battery. Obviously if they do, a serviceable battery will get a bigger rebate than an unserviceable one. Depending on how difficult they are to replace I was looking at the idea of seeing if someone would make aftermarket packs using Toshiba SCiBs for Fisker and Tesla so that they could be recharged using Level 3 in 5-10 minutes.
For SCiB it is possible. Many of the current level 3's are 49kW. But Aeroviroment make several Level 3's 30, 60, 125 and 250kW. So, pound for pound Lithium Titanate is about half as energy dense as other lithium chemistries, but because of its resistance to DOD damage one can take it from 100% to 0% unlike the Chevy Volt which goes from 80% to 30% if I am not mistaken, using only 50%. Well, that makes up for being half as energy dense right there.
I am still unsure what Fisker's actual DOD is. Assuming it is the same, a Lithium Titanate battery of the same weight would only be about 10kW give the same range and recharge on a 250kW Level 3 charger at 25C in 2.4 minutes.
Tesla Model S 40kw, 60kw, and 85kw nLTO replacement batteries at 20kW, 30kW, and 42.5kW would recharge in 4.8 minutes @ 12.5C, 7.2 minutes @ 8.33C, and just over 10 minutes @ 5.88C. Tesla's ranges for its batteries are probably based on 100% DOD, so instead of 160, 200, and 300 miles, you will get 80, 100, and 150.
Which would you rather have for a cross country trip:
Tesla's Supercharger Access (TSA) = 30 minute charge for 160 mile range on a 85kW battery
or Lithium Titanate Replacement (LTR) = 10 minute charge for 150 mile range on a 42.5kW battery
for 10 hours of travel time @ 70 mph that breaks down to starting with a fully charged battery at start:
TSA: 4.25 hours+0.5 recharge+2.25 hours+0.5 recharge+2.25 hours = 9.75 hours (612.5 miles driven)
LTR: (2.10 hours+0.1 recharge)*4+0.95 hours = 9.75 hours (654.5 miles driven)
Only slightly impressive, but consider the fact that you will probably want that 8 year warranty if you drive like this a lot, and that the LTR will probably last 20 years like this.
I am still unsure what Fisker's actual DOD is. Assuming it is the same, a Lithium Titanate battery of the same weight would only be about 10kW give the same range and recharge on a 250kW Level 3 charger at 25C in 2.4 minutes.
Tesla Model S 40kw, 60kw, and 85kw nLTO replacement batteries at 20kW, 30kW, and 42.5kW would recharge in 4.8 minutes @ 12.5C, 7.2 minutes @ 8.33C, and just over 10 minutes @ 5.88C. Tesla's ranges for its batteries are probably based on 100% DOD, so instead of 160, 200, and 300 miles, you will get 80, 100, and 150.
Which would you rather have for a cross country trip:
Tesla's Supercharger Access (TSA) = 30 minute charge for 160 mile range on a 85kW battery
or Lithium Titanate Replacement (LTR) = 10 minute charge for 150 mile range on a 42.5kW battery
for 10 hours of travel time @ 70 mph that breaks down to starting with a fully charged battery at start:
TSA: 4.25 hours+0.5 recharge+2.25 hours+0.5 recharge+2.25 hours = 9.75 hours (612.5 miles driven)
LTR: (2.10 hours+0.1 recharge)*4+0.95 hours = 9.75 hours (654.5 miles driven)
Only slightly impressive, but consider the fact that you will probably want that 8 year warranty if you drive like this a lot, and that the LTR will probably last 20 years like this.
I think the A123 site shows that the batteries have a 100% DOD cycles in the thousands.
I'm still wondering what the replacement cost will be. Yes, they will go down in price, but with inflation and limited production run cars it may go up.
I'm still wondering what the replacement cost will be. Yes, they will go down in price, but with inflation and limited production run cars it may go up.
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Sorry to be a bit rude, but what is the replacement cost for the motor in your 2006 Ford GT? IMO, it is not something we consider when owning an ICE car, nor should it be a concern for a PHEV with a claimed 10/100,000 life for the battery.ffcars said:
ffcars,
Since it is warrantied, it should not matter for 50 months after buying the car. As for after that, anything anybody tells you now about the price of a newly emerging technology is going to be wildly inaccurate. If someone told you $20k would it really mean anything? Especially considering that the replacement could have greater performance.
Since it is warrantied, it should not matter for 50 months after buying the car. As for after that, anything anybody tells you now about the price of a newly emerging technology is going to be wildly inaccurate. If someone told you $20k would it really mean anything? Especially considering that the replacement could have greater performance.
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All I know is my wife's 2006 BMW 750Li needed a new transmission after 65K miles and 5 years. That wasn't on warranty and cost me $9500.
As for a 20 kW Lithium Ion battery, after 10 years, I'd guess cost between $2000 and $5000, depending on whether that newest version needed an integrated cooling system as part of the battery pack (I'm hoping they don't in 10 years). But as smart people above have noted, its an emerging technology so this is a WAG.
Here's the offsetting question: How long might the Internal Combustion Engine last, given that it runs so seldom? That is, when I have 100K miles on the car, will the ICE have only run for maybe 15% of those miles? Properly maintained, the ICE could last many, many, many years. The electric motors, by definition, have fewer moving parts and therefore should expect much less maintenance over the long term as well.
With a heavy car, tires and brakes may likely be the biggest issue long term! Good thing we have Karma's Hill mode and plenty of regenerative braking!
As for a 20 kW Lithium Ion battery, after 10 years, I'd guess cost between $2000 and $5000, depending on whether that newest version needed an integrated cooling system as part of the battery pack (I'm hoping they don't in 10 years). But as smart people above have noted, its an emerging technology so this is a WAG.
Here's the offsetting question: How long might the Internal Combustion Engine last, given that it runs so seldom? That is, when I have 100K miles on the car, will the ICE have only run for maybe 15% of those miles? Properly maintained, the ICE could last many, many, many years. The electric motors, by definition, have fewer moving parts and therefore should expect much less maintenance over the long term as well.
With a heavy car, tires and brakes may likely be the biggest issue long term! Good thing we have Karma's Hill mode and plenty of regenerative braking!
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I was perusing Fisker's Quantum partner...and found in their latest corporate presentation that the Q-Drive costs only $4K!!!!
Check it out:
http://www.qtww.com/assets/u/QTWWPresentation11302011.pdf
Slide 8.
Wonder if they'll sell me one so I can have a spare in case the current one fails down the line... =)
Check it out:
http://www.qtww.com/assets/u/QTWWPresentation11302011.pdf
Slide 8.
Wonder if they'll sell me one so I can have a spare in case the current one fails down the line... =)
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As I read the slide, that $4K would only buy you the electronics and control systems (and only if you are being in volume) but does not include the battery, which is made by someone else entirely. So I am sure they will be happy to sell you the stuff but that is not really likely to be the part you would want to replace.SoCalGuy said:
-- Fab.
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Tesla has a huge lead in battery prices, and no-one else comes close. Google "A123 battery price per kWh" and you'll find many hits saying it costs A123 $1000/kWh to make lithium batteries for vehicles like the Karma.dennis said:
Here are two advantages Tesla has:
1) Panasonic is an investor and has made a quantity deal with Tesla to supply batteries.
2) Only Tesla uses the 18650 standard size batteris for automotive use. Most other auto companies are using prismatic batteries, which cost more to make. FWIW, Tesla claims the cylindrical shape is the most performance-efficient use of battery materials, and that using lots of separate cells with cooling in between results in an inherently safer pack due to reduced probability of thermal runaway. The downsides to Tesla's approach are that the overall pack size per kWh is larger, and the increased complexity of managing a pack built from thousands of cells.
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