Fisker Buzz Forums banner
1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
EX:Shadow/Canyon #324
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
I'm usually even below that (granted its colder here). The article didn't surprise me much, as I've learned first hand that the advertised range isn't attainable under most conditions... What ruffled my feathers were all the apologist posts on TMC.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,975 Posts
Wow - not a great article for Tesla or EVs generally. Underscores the niche EVers play as we tradition to pure electrics!
 

·
EX:Shadow/Canyon #324
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm usually even below that (granted its colder here). The article didn't surprise me much, as I've learned first hand that the advertised range isn't attainable under most conditions... What ruffled my feathers were all the apologist posts on TMC.
Agreed, but at least one posted an even worse experience by someone who attempted a cold weather road trip without supercharger access:

http://andwediditourway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-not-so-ev-life.html

Unfortunately, like with the Fisker "battery fires", incidents like this have the potential to be blown way out of proportion and damage the perception of EV's in the mind of the general public. On the other hand, maybe they are needed to temper the enthusiasm of BEV early adopters that the technology is now ready the cross the chasm into mainstream acceptance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Wow. That was a fairly blistering "cold" review. The description of the drive and the issues with the effective range vs the optimal range is enlightening. I do appreciate the Karma's range extension because I do fairly frequent >300 mile trips in the central part of the United States and there aren't any superchargers around. I was interested in the Model S and the Model X but I don't like the range anxiety nor the lack of amenities when trying to save power on a vehicle costing 100K. I think I might go for the Panamera and the dealer is willing to sell at 100K for MSRP 111K on a 2013 GTS. Neither of the body designs excite me like the Karma but the performance of 4 sec on 0-60 and 12.7 sec quarter-mile can still put a smile on my face and I don't have to go slow and turn the heater off. I find it interesting that the Panamera does not seem to be very popular. I have not driven the hybrid but I don't see a distinct advantage to it. The Panamera has a big trunk and it is a surprisingly big car. Has anyone compared by a test drive the difference between the S8 Audi and the Panamera GTS?
 

·
Early Adopter
Joined
·
1,259 Posts
Wow. That was a fairly blistering "cold" review. The description of the drive and the issues with the effective range vs the optimal range is enlightening. I do appreciate the Karma's range extension because I do fairly frequent >300 mile trips in the central part of the United States and there aren't any superchargers around. I was interested in the Model S and the Model X but I don't like the range anxiety nor the lack of amenities when trying to save power on a vehicle costing 100K. I think I might go for the Panamera and the dealer is willing to sell at 100K for MSRP 111K on a 2013 GTS. Neither of the body designs excite me like the Karma but the performance of 4 sec on 0-60 and 12.7 sec quarter-mile can still put a smile on my face and I don't have to go slow and turn the heater off. I find it interesting that the Panamera does not seem to be very popular. I have not driven the hybrid but I don't see a distinct advantage to it. The Panamera has a big trunk and it is a surprisingly big car. Has anyone compared by a test drive the difference between the S8 Audi and the Panamera GTS?
My friend just bought one, he loves it! cheaper the my karma and much more comfort then my karma, but look wise, the karma turns heads. They are more popular then you think - they lead sales wise in that segment. Look wise, it's a Porsche , you either love it or hate it. My friend liked my karma, but was not impressed with the quality, the noises it made and the interior room as well as fit and finish - compared to his Porsche, I have to agree, but my Karma reminds me of the early super cars, Daytona, muira and De Thomaso, great looks, but issues with fit and finish and the refinements for the price. While the karma does not stack up with performance with today's best, very heavy car, it does perform on par with the super cars from the 70s and 80s - karma , feel young again - that should be their mantra :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Agreed, but at least one posted an even worse experience by someone who attempted a cold weather road trip without supercharger access:

http://andwediditourway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-not-so-ev-life.html

Unfortunately, like with the Fisker "battery fires", incidents like this have the potential to be blown way out of proportion and damage the perception of EV's in the mind of the general public. On the other hand, maybe they are needed to temper the enthusiasm of BEV early adopters that the technology is now ready the cross the chasm into mainstream acceptance.
Right. Without proper infrastructure, its still very much an early adopter thing, which means you'll still get those folks that swear up and down its the second coming. I remember discussions where someone was saying "if you need to drive further, just stay at an EV park and rent a car!". I don't think their rosé tinted glasses allowed them to see just how impractical both of those options are.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
99 Posts
With the two East Coast superchargers 200 miles apart and cold weather, the demo run set up by Tesla does not go according to plan, even with a "300 mile" battery Model S. This is consistent with my trip from San Jose to LA, where the real world range at freeway speeds was 205-210 miles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
A Response to: Stalled on the E.V. Highway
http://electricroadtrips.com/a-response-to-stalled-on-the-e-v-highway/
.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,662 Posts
Knowledge is power; in this case, electric power. I am sure similar articles were written about cars when they stated replacing horses or about airplanes when they started being used to cross the continent. The established infrastructure (horses, railroads) are always more predictable and easier to use than the new technology. But that is no excuse to just stay with the existing technology. After all, even the most familiar technology was once new, buggy, and annoying. This is no different. It's pretty easy, and frankly lazy, to write the "who needs this $#1+ when we already have X" type story. It takes imagination to write the "this will one day be as ubiquitous as X" story, which was the response linked above.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
854 Posts
I'm usually even below that (granted its colder here). The article didn't surprise me much, as I've learned first hand that the advertised range isn't attainable under most conditions... What ruffled my feathers were all the apologist posts on TMC.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13633-NYT-article-Stalled-on-the-EV-Highway

Fortunately it seems the rational folks with something of substance to contribute won out over the fanboi (girl actually) knee-jerk defensiveness.

I see this as an opportunity for Tesla. The trip this journalist took could have been fine with a few minor adjustments. Tesla can make software changes to reduce idle energy consumption and provide the driver with more useful information, so this kind of situation is less likely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
996 Posts
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13633-NYT-article-Stalled-on-the-EV-Highway

Fortunately it seems the rational folks with something of substance to contribute won out over the fanboi (girl actually) knee-jerk defensiveness.

I see this as an opportunity for Tesla. The trip this journalist took could have been fine with a few minor adjustments. Tesla can make software changes to reduce idle energy consumption and provide the driver with more useful information, so this kind of situation is less likely.
It seems as if the consensus opinion on that thread was to drive slower, plug in to 110v overnight (even though it is a known problem that the Model S may lose miles even when plugged in to 110 in cold temps) and turn the heat off while driving.

If Tesla were to reduce idle energy consumption it is likely the useful life of the battery pack may be diminished significantly. I do not think it is an easy firmware fix as it was for the early Roadster. This seems to be a design limitation of the Model S battery pack.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
854 Posts
If Tesla were to reduce idle energy consumption it is likely the useful life of the battery pack may be diminished significantly.
I don't think so. For the most part, what can damage the battery is high current while the battery is cold. Not the battery simply getting cold. If the user is able to tell the car what time he/she expects to depart in the morning, the car can allow the temperature to drop further and then warm the pack at at some point prior to departure. (Similar to how your home heating system might reduce the set point while you're away.) The internal resistance of the cells is higher when cold, so there will be some self heating while in use, though acceleration and regen will be limited until the battery gets up to temperature. (I've often mused that that excess regen should go directly into a resistive heater, but after doing some math I see it's not terribly practical.)

The car is connected to the wealth of information in the cloud and the users smart phone. Using information like expected time of departure, users expected destination (including expected traffic, elevation changes, speed limits, and supercharger locations), ambient temperature, current temperature of the pack, and weather forecast, Tesla could adjust the software to give a much better range estimate and give better guidance to the driver. I wouldn't expected them all immediately, but these are things which could be implemented through a software update pushed out over the air.

The only disadvantage I see to the Model S pack versus the Roadster pack is that the Model S pack seems to have a much larger surface area to mass ratio, so it has a lower effective thermal inertia wrt the outside environment (in some situations that's an advantage). Off the top of my head, though, everything else about the Model S pack thermal management is superior to the Roadster's.

Anyhow, my point is that Tesla should react to this by making the experience better for the user rather than making excuses (like the emotional fanbois are).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
996 Posts
Yes it would be great if they could make the Model S learn like my Nest thermostat. It would be nice if all these devices were able to tap into one cloud stored database and each device did not have to learn behaviors separately; furthermore they could leverage the learned behaviors off other devices (negating the need for specialized algorithms).

Main question I have is why does the Roadster battery not lose a significant amount of miles compared to the Model S? I have had my Roadster sit idle for days in snowy weather (without being plugged in) and have not noticed more than a few miles of range disappearing (most was 13 after 5 days of sitting in the snow). Do you think the large heated surface area of the Model S takes that much more energy to heat? That seems to be quite excessive? How will this work in hot climates? It seems like a ton of miles may be lost during the dead of summer if this is such a huge issue in the winter time. Even more battery zapping thermal management will be necessary in the winter time.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,662 Posts
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13633-NYT-article-Stalled-on-the-EV-Highway

I see this as an opportunity for Tesla. The trip this journalist took could have been fine with a few minor adjustments. Tesla can make software changes to reduce idle energy consumption and provide the driver with more useful information, so this kind of situation is less likely.
Since the car seems to know a lot about its own environment, SOC, how far it is from closest charging points, etc., it should be able to make recommendations about what to do to optimize range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Yes it would be great if they could make the Model S learn like my Nest thermostat. It would be nice if all these devices were able to tap into one cloud stored database and each device did not have to learn behaviors separately; furthermore they could leverage the learned behaviors off other devices (negating the need for specialized algorithms).

Main question I have is why does the Roadster battery not lose a significant amount of miles compared to the Model S? I have had my Roadster sit idle for days in snowy weather (without being plugged in) and have not noticed more than a few miles of range disappearing (most was 13 after 5 days of sitting in the snow). Do you think the large heated surface area of the Model S takes that much more energy to heat? That seems to be quite excessive? How will this work in hot climates? It seems like a ton of miles may be lost during the dead of summer if this is such a huge issue in the winter time. Even more battery zapping thermal management will be necessary in the winter time.
I've read musings that the flat pack under the bottom in the S means more contact area for outside temps... I suppose, if true, its a blessing and a curse. Should be interesting to see where this goes,
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
99 Posts
Tesla vs. The New York Times: How Range Anxiety Leads to Road (Trip) Rage
BY CHELSEA SEXTON02.12.139:00 PM
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/0...s-when-range-anxiety-leads-to-road-trip-rage/

It’s more useful to compare EVs to iPhones: a product that is firmly in the realm of early adopters today but could be ubiquitous tomorrow.

Mobile phones were never premised on delivering the exact same experience as the land-line phones (“gas cars”) they replace. They don’t have the talk time (“driving range”) of hard-wired phones, and aren’t expected to. They must be “re-fueled” much more often than home phones — much like an EV, actually.
 

·
Early Adopter
Joined
·
1,259 Posts
Tesla vs. The New York Times: How Range Anxiety Leads to Road (Trip) Rage
BY CHELSEA SEXTON02.12.139:00 PM
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/0...s-when-range-anxiety-leads-to-road-trip-rage/
Scott, I like the analogy, but the premises is wrong, the cars weighs to much , and not enough plugs available to charge the car in 30 minutes or less. Now if every gas station added a supercharge and vendors sold attachable generators for the EVs, and you can borrow anyone else car when your battery died, now you are on to something :angel:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
99 Posts
A Most Peculiar Test Drive
By Elon Musk, Chairman, Product Architect & CEO
February 13, 2013
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most-peculiar-test-drive

The logs show again that our Model S never had a chance with John Broder. In the case with Top Gear, their legal defense was that they never actually said it broke down, they just implied that it could and then filmed themselves pushing what viewers did not realize was a perfectly functional car. In Mr. Broder’s case, he simply did not accurately capture what happened and worked very hard to force our car to stop running.

Here is a summary of the key facts:
<snip>
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top