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So I know I've written a few times about the potential to put in other battery technologies in the Fisker and the responses have been varied from ... impossible to not sure but as the average Karma gets older (mine is at 27500km), it is inevitable that we will need to replace the batteries.

Has anyone thought of how we can take advantage of any of the new technologies and battery types so they can be used in the Karma? No one else is going to do it for us so it's something this group really needs to do at some point.

Or perhaps we're just destined to having to replace increasingly broken down modules with the same thing at a high expense while other electric vehicles get the benefit of having much longer ranges and power?

Should we start a fund or something that would pay one of the technicians to start doing some research and work on finding a way to handle different battery types and how to adapt them to the Karma? People have brought up different issues like software, temperature control etc. but no one's actually done the work needed to see what the issues are. Perhaps temperature is an issue but can be solved with an adapted cooling system (since newer batteries may be smaller and have more density, there will be space for additional cooling?) or what the software issues actually are (all we're talking about is the power modules, not the power delivery system... you don't want to touch anything past where software becomes an issue, at some point there is a power transfer where you should be able to get a mechanical device that matches the voltage and power specs before it hits any software point).

All this is going to take some trial and error so someone should get paid for it and if we all pitch in together, we may end up getting a solution that gives us a car that can take advantage of all the new battery technology and we may finally see the day where we have over 500km battery range ... wouldn't that be cool?!

I'd be willing to pitch in and if everyone else does the same it would be a lot cheaper for all of us. I would suggest doing it in tranches where we get volunteers or a group of the engineers here to give us an initial budget and we fund it every 3 months so it's not some huge hit to the pocket book up front and we can see progress along the way. Those who participate get the benefit of the conclusions and the new battery technology, those who don't get squat ... any suggestions?

Pat
 

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My sense is that the New Fisker would be a potential source for better battery tech in the next 2-3Y.
 

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Without getting into a lengthy biography about this, it would cost a small fortune for you guys to do this and the return wouldn't be great. The battery in this car is the heart and most integrated part of the hybryd drive system. I could go on for hours about the many roadblocks this would involve. I know for a fact this topic was approached by old Fisker when a123 was going under. They said it was going to be too costly and take too long for another battery maker to design a suitable replacement.
Let Wanxiang do their thing. Your best bet since they now control both.
 

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I know for a fact this topic was approached by old Fisker when a123 was going under. They said it was going to be too costly and take too long for another battery maker to design a suitable replacement.

... Wat has been plan b?
Or has this been the ting to throw the towel?

I share the original idea about replacing only the energy storage. There are only few parameters involved... That have to match or be adapted by tweaking mechanic or electronic

- size
- V out
- V in for charging
- A out, max and constant
- A in, max and constant
- temp under different conditions
- possibly the cover to place the thermostat elements to monitor C'

If there is a cell, matching this parameters, why shouldn't it be replaceable?

If this cell has more capacity, to the existing electronic, is will just look like a really old cell while charging (it takes longer!) and like a new one while draining (again, because it takes longer)
 

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Hate to be the skeptic here, but I don't think any of this technical balderdash matters all that much when the company that owns Fisker also owns A123. Just saying ...
 

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The good news is that the battery world is making progress that we will likely see before our batteries need replacement. Stanford just announced a break through doubling or tripling mileage and LG chem just put out a good article about 200 mile range batteries in $30K cars by 2017. I would let the big guys spend their millions and billions on research. It is really exciting to see all this technology unfolding and all the new fun cars to test drive. Of course no other car has the looks of a Karma!!
 

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I have no idea about technology but am just a Fisker owner an have the same concerns and thoughts as Heckeydad. Maybe that helps me to still believe that the progress in battery technology could help us in the next 2-3 years. I posted a while ago my example with the bunny: if you would have bought an electrical bunny ten years ago it would maybe hopped around for an hour with a new battery. If you put a new battery with today's technology in the same bunny it would hop around for 2-3 hours. Not higher but sure longer. that's just what I hope will happen with our batteries. so I like the idea of funding some money to invest in this direction.

So I know I've written a few times about the potential to put in other battery technologies in the Fisker and the responses have been varied from ... impossible to not sure but as the average Karma gets older (mine is at 27500km), it is inevitable that we will need to replace the batteries.

Has anyone thought of how we can take advantage of any of the new technologies and battery types so they can be used in the Karma? No one else is going to do it for us so it's something this group really needs to do at some point.

Or perhaps we're just destined to having to replace increasingly broken down modules with the same thing at a high expense while other electric vehicles get the benefit of having much longer ranges and power?

Should we start a fund or something that would pay one of the technicians to start doing some research and work on finding a way to handle different battery types and how to adapt them to the Karma? People have brought up different issues like software, temperature control etc. but no one's actually done the work needed to see what the issues are. Perhaps temperature is an issue but can be solved with an adapted cooling system (since newer batteries may be smaller and have more density, there will be space for additional cooling?) or what the software issues actually are (all we're talking about is the power modules, not the power delivery system... you don't want to touch anything past where software becomes an issue, at some point there is a power transfer where you should be able to get a mechanical device that matches the voltage and power specs before it hits any software point).

All this is going to take some trial and error so someone should get paid for it and if we all pitch in together, we may end up getting a solution that gives us a car that can take advantage of all the new battery technology and we may finally see the day where we have over 500km battery range ... wouldn't that be cool?!

I'd be willing to pitch in and if everyone else does the same it would be a lot cheaper for all of us. I would suggest doing it in tranches where we get volunteers or a group of the engineers here to give us an initial budget and we fund it every 3 months so it's not some huge hit to the pocket book up front and we can see progress along the way. Those who participate get the benefit of the conclusions and the new battery technology, those who don't get squat ... any suggestions?

Pat
 

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EV Battery Technology Article

This is an interesting article on new EV battery technology by a company called SolidEnergy.

http://chargedevs.com/newswire/solidenergy-hopes-to-double-ev-battery-range-by-2017/

What caught my eye was the last sentence, which states that SoldEnergy is collaborating with A123 Venture Technologies.

So while this doesn't mean anything yet, it hints that that battery innovation is occurring at Wanxiang/A123.
 

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Always interesting news. I am not sure that the Fisker batteries are the latest technology. However, I read that Wanxiang Sold A123 a few months ago.

Watching from Tesla website, there is always a new battery technology a few years away. Hoping it will "pan" out.
 

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the guys from EMotorWerks are working on 3 Karmas as far as i know, they have been successful getting them to a EV only by both replacing the a123 batteries and adding more to the front good by taking off the ICE and the generator..

hope they will post it once they have a plan how to kit/install them for the "mass" market out there.
 

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Always interesting news. I am not sure that the Fisker batteries are the latest technology. However, I read that Wanxiang Sold A123 a few months ago.

Watching from Tesla website, there is always a new battery technology a few years away. Hoping it will "pan" out.
@AlJOHN,

According to Wikipedia, A123 is still a subsidiary of Wanxiang America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A123_Systems

I wonder if the sale you are referring to is this announcement from March 2014 where A123 sold off their energy storage business not related to automotive batteries?

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/nec-snatches-a123-energy-storage-biz-from-wanxiang
 

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the guys from EMotorWerks are working on 3 Karmas as far as i know, they have been successful getting them to a EV only by both replacing the a123 batteries and adding more to the front good by taking off the ICE and the generator..

hope they will post it once they have a plan how to kit/install them for the "mass" market out there.
do we have any early data on EST price, final weight and ev miles? Also any discussion on adding or enhancing the charging system for fast charge ?
 

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Thanks Wattgas.... It was that article which I saw. I missed the part that said "non-automotive". I guess it is some good news that A123 is still part of Wanxiang.
Appreciate your research...
 

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@AlJOHN,

According to Wikipedia, A123 is still a subsidiary of Wanxiang America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A123_Systems

I wonder if the sale you are referring to is this announcement from March 2014 where A123 sold off their energy storage business not related to automotive batteries?

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/nec-snatches-a123-energy-storage-biz-from-wanxiang

They are selling division on non automotive


the non-automotive lithium-ion battery and system integration branch of A123



Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 

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i can't recall the estimated price, but i think it was a total of 70+ real miles.
there is a similar tread here (http://www.fiskerbuzz.com/forums/13-fisker-karma/12337-new-battery-technology.html) where the user "valerun" is involved, that's the founder of EMW, i'm sure he can share some of their progress.
70+ real miles would be a huge improvement. In some cases, almost double what I get in the summer time with AC running and super high outside temps affecting the HV battery temp.
@valerun - if you're still active on the site, would you mind sharing any updates on this project?
 

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70+ real miles would be a huge improvement. In some cases, almost double what I get in the summer time with AC running and super high outside temps affecting the HV battery temp.

@valerun - if you're still active on the site, would you mind sharing any updates on this project?
Thanks for pinging. We spun off the co that is working on rebuilding Fisker into a separate company. Things are going well but we are a bit radical about it and have decided to (1) go all-electric, and (2) use 18650 nanophosphate (similar to A123) in a slab-type, Tesla-like configuration on the bottom of the car (and the tunnel, of course).

We will get ~125 miles of all-electric range but no huge genset. There is a plan to offer REX, though - similar to BMW i3 type.

What we are doing will not be interesting for the majority of the owners as the price tag is pretty steep. But we are trying to make this beautiful car perform as well as a high-end Tesla.

We should have our first proto soon.

V
 
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