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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We have completed the development of our proprietary drivers for our new hardware (about 850x more bandwidth vs our previous implementation). Our vehicles will be undergoing a variety of tests to ensure that the drivers are robust enough for all driving scenarios.

If the test results are acceptable, we plan on making first deliveries by Early-December (just in time for Xmas!). We will be setting up website for pre-orders in mid novemberish and will post the direct link when it is up.

We have received great feedback from many owners; the consensus is that drive-modes should be split off from charge indicator, fan speed control, smartphone connectivity etc. We will plan on offering a stand-alone drive mode only module and an enhanced module package that includes extended features.

With regards to installation, we will be offering nationwide white glove on-site installation. We will have a team of PowerSource engineers install these modules in geographic batches across the country, at your place of business or home.

Look forward to hearing your questions and feedback.
 

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We have completed the development of our proprietary drivers for our new hardware (about 850x more bandwidth vs our previous implementation). Our vehicles will be undergoing a variety of tests to ensure that the drivers are robust enough for all driving scenarios.

If the test results are acceptable, we plan on making first deliveries by Early-December (just in time for Xmas!). We will be setting up website for pre-orders in mid novemberish and will post the direct link when it is up.

We have received great feedback from many owners; the consensus is that drive-modes should be split off from charge indicator, fan speed control, smartphone connectivity etc. We will plan on offering a stand-alone drive mode only module and an enhanced module package that includes extended features.

With regards to installation, we will be offering nationwide white glove on-site installation. We will have a team of PowerSource engineers install these modules in geographic batches across the country, at your place of business or home.

Look forward to hearing your questions and feedback.
Great news, and thanks for the update. It seems like a huge duplication of effort for your company to set up all these resources that KA has more-or-less in place, and continuing to do so. It would seem like a great opportunity for KA to offer these products as a third-party add-on through their CSP network. It seems like a win-win-win. KA gets to offer lots of new and interesting capabilities to existing owners without distracting their engineers who are building the next generation products and features, and you get to use the CSP network. The owners get the benefit of your development work plus the expertise of KA CSPs to make sure the installation is done correctly.

I am sure the topic must have come up during the Karma Fest 2015 at Fisker of Cherry Hill. To the extent you can discuss it publicly, was there any interest or traction?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Great news, and thanks for the update. It seems like a huge duplication of effort for your company to set up all these resources that KA has more-or-less in place, and continuing to do so. It would seem like a great opportunity for KA to offer these products as a third-party add-on through their CSP network. It seems like a win-win-win. KA gets to offer lots of new and interesting capabilities to existing owners without distracting their engineers who are building the next generation products and features, and you get to use the CSP network. The owners get the benefit of your development work plus the expertise of KA CSPs to make sure the installation is done correctly.

I am sure the topic must have come up during the Karma Fest 2015 at Fisker of Cherry Hill. To the extent you can discuss it publicly, was there any interest or traction?
Yes we offered to transfer all the source code, hardware PCB designs, algorithms and all IP related to this module to KA (for just hardware cost). KA decided that they did not want to go that route for reasons unknown. We thought it would be a win-win for the owners and KA but unfortunately it did not work out.
 

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Why would KA not want to support these developments? If I am reading correctly they are getting intellectual property for no investment. Baffling!
 

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Yes we offered to transfer all the source code, hardware PCB designs, algorithms and all IP related to this module to KA (for just hardware cost). KA decided that they did not want to go that route for reasons unknown. We thought it would be a win-win for the owners and KA but unfortunately it did not work out.
Oh Well. Does this disagreement byte us if we do the update and then KA will not certify the cars for extended warranty service? I sure hope KARMANEWS and folks at KA think long a hard about their decisions. It's time to start thinking like Silicon Valley and less like DETROIT -- we all know what happened to the Digital Equipment, US STEEL and WANG Corporation -- minds have "stretch" to expand to see the horizon
 

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Keep in mind that an after-market device can be installed by the owners. If Karma Auto changed the code and thus the way the ICE interfaced with the battery, it may invalidate the Karma's Certification..... see Volkswagen. KA will have to stay close on the emissions front not to suffer re-certification in all the countries Karma's are sold.

Let's not think it is a matter of ego.
 

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Keep in mind that an after-market device can be installed by the owners. If Karma Auto changed the code and thus the way the ICE interfaced with the battery, it may invalidate the Karma's Certification..... see Volkswagen. KA will have to stay close on the emissions front not to suffer re-certification in all the countries Karma's are sold.

Let's not think it is a matter of ego.
I don't think the issue is ego, or even emissions. The modules we are talking about work through the CAN bus and don't require any modification to the source code by Karma, and can be removed or disabled to return the car to its original behavior.

The point I raised originally was that both KA and the owners would benefit by KA distributing the mods, as an after-market option, and to permit the CSP network to install and service them.

As a practical matter, any new Karmas would have to go through full certification anyway, and that is probably not the reason for FA's reluctance. Their caution about potential liability is rational, but that risk is always present and a lot of companies manage to balance the risk/reward equation to their gain.

There may also be a lot of potentially good reasons for the decision made by FA, but that should not stop us, the owner and enthusiast community, to try to persuade KA to see the picture differently or to take a -- no pun intended -- hybrid approach that addresses their concerns while making the option available to us.

In any case, the folks who came to Joe's event last weekend seemed very eager to listen to, and to hear from, the owner community, and there is no harm in telling them what we think, IMHO.
 

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Thanks Fabulist. I did not to intend to debate the how Karma Automotive could install in the vehicle or not. My point here was that we owners should not berate Karma Automotive on its decision not to install the code on Power Sources behalf without the knowledge of what K A is legally allowed in modifying how the ICE/Battery works and its affect on the vehicle emissions certifications.

I see no value in fostering a wedge between KA an Power Source in the forum. They are BOTH trying to assist owners with differing solutions. I understood there were reasons that Fisker changed the way the ICE operates and how it maintains SOC. As there may be reasons for now Karma Automotive not to incorporate as the now responsible manufacturer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks Fabulist. I did not to intend to debate the how Karma Automotive could install in the vehicle or not. My point here was that we owners should not berate Karma Automotive on its decision not to install the code on Power Sources behalf without the knowledge of what K A is legally allowed in modifying how the ICE/Battery works and its affect on the vehicle emissions certifications.

I see no value in fostering a wedge between KA an Power Source in the forum. They are BOTH trying to assist owners with differing solutions. I understood there were reasons that Fisker changed the way the ICE operates and how it maintains SOC. As there may be reasons for now Karma Automotive not to incorporate as the now responsible manufacturer.
Just to clarify the offer was to essentially give KA the software and framework to develop an ecosystem independent of suppliers and having some level of vertical integration. The code we developed is for Charging on the Fly and stationary charging; as a side benefit there is also remote firmware updates, connectivity and the ability to "fix" other modules and functionality gaps where the source code is not available or the supply chain is interrupted by an unruly vendor at some point in the future. The ability to solely control your vehicle to us seems to be pretty logical.

As I understand KA depends on suppliers (would guess close to 100%) for all functionality deliverables and without getting these suppliers (unequivocally without recourse) on-board they face an almost insurmountable challenge of launching the vehicle and then supporting it as the suppliers own the functionality of the vehicle.

Charging on the Fly, Stationary charging etc were our wish list but as an OEM I would assume there are several hundred other items. YMMV Just our thoughts.
 

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Hello,

I have been asked by PSource to post my thoughts on being a beta tester. I am under NDA as I assume other testers are but can post a bit about what my interactions are with the system.

I was one of the early Beta Testers of the T.O.M and would like to share my experiences with the module from 3 weeks ago till today.

- When I first received the module it was optimized for highway travel. The Karma would bank a lot of highway miles almost 1:2 ratio but the latest release is geared towards acceleration which I prefer.
- EV mode after a full charge calibration has changed from 49 miles to 45 miles. You may lose on the order of magnitude of 7-10 miles under heavy acceleration but it always builds back and will get you to 45. This mode is useful to hold miles in city driving but most effective on highway.
- EV doesn't fire the genset sometimes, you accelerate in full stealth and the ICE will fire off later in the drive cycle and seems less intrusive than the current sport/0 mile stealth. Think of it a as a blended sport/stealth. Hard to explain you have to drive it. I like it.
- ER mode banks the most miles when in cruise. It works great on city streets but the most efficient use is on the highway. ER mode seems at least as quick as Sport and maybe bit quicker.
-Sport and Stealth stay the same. I sometimes use Sport for passing but usually stay in EV on the highway, Stealth on city streets and ER to rebuild.


All in all I am very satisfied with the TOM and it is always nice to arrive at a destination with 45 miles of EV range and no embarrassing engine noises . I am getting somewhere in the 20-25 MPG over the past few hundred miles of highway and city driving.

Will keep you posted as time permits.
 

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Fantastic that it works, and I understand what you've said. May I ask, were you driving normally during this test, or did you do more highway/distance than normal to test out the functionality? In other words, before the test, were you a person who had over 100 MPG in your regular driving, or are you frequently engaging the ICE (always going on the highway and more than 50 miles between overnight stops near a charger)?
 

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Fantastic that it works, and I understand what you've said. May I ask, were you driving normally during this test, or did you do more highway/distance than normal to test out the functionality? In other words, before the test, were you a person who had over 100 MPG in your regular driving, or are you frequently engaging the ICE (always going on the highway and more than 50 miles between overnight stops near a charger)?
I would consider myself to be a lead foot and go through the battery pretty quickly both on the highway and city streets. My normal weekday commute is about 10 miles but I did take a trip to San Diego and San Francisco where I was able to test the functions of the vehicle.

I have done this trip before and the performance from having a near full pack made it more enjoyable. My butt dyno feels a big difference between sport hold and higher SOC sport deplete and ER. Previously I never used to plug in opportunistically as it would take a ridiculously long time for the Karma to get enough juice v time. The charge on the fly feature is much more useful to get 90% and top off publicly as I only need a few miles.
 

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I am also a beta tester for the Tom unit and can share some thoughts on the device.

1. May be placebo but Karma seems to have more pep it in its step with Tom in EV mode rather than pure stealth. As mentioned by the previous poster EV mode is a blended version of stealth and sport. It is an interesting phenomenon when you are at a stoplight and the REX does not kick in till you are at 40% throttle and the noise is barely perceptible. Very similar to sport without the noise at partial throttle.

2. I live in an area of Newport, CA where we have a ton of charging stations but my commute and shopping patterns don't really mesh with how quickly Karma can charge. For me it is kind of pointless to plug in on availability rather than at home because there are not many miles to be gained from plugging in with a Karma unless you have an extended stop. With this unit I usually hold charge in EV mode till I get to my destination and top off there. I can then run in stealth and rebuild charge when heading to my next location and then deplete in sport when heading home. Priceless! On a side-note I have stationary charged in the parking lot of Fashion Island with the AC full blast on what was probably the hottest day ever in Socal. Captured about 10 miles and had a real cold vehicle after breakfast at Le Pain.

Biggest embarrassment I had before TOM with this car, was when I was in Stealth with no miles and the ICE would kick on like a screaming kid in the middle of a valet line.

3.Sport mode and Stealth mode are still retained and I mainly use Sport for passing or to deplete to 27 miles before I rebuild with ER mode. Stealth is mainly used in the city and if i get on any stretch of highway it goes to ER or Sport. Best trick is to use cruise when in ER or EV as it captures the most amount of miles in driving.

All in all I am very pleased with the device and it is definitely the missing piece to this car. I got a notice in my email about a new product that Power Source is coming out with and I can't wait to experience that as well.

Any questions feel free to post or message me.
 
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