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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I know fro Chargepoint when my Fisker is charged it stops drawing major power is flatlines to zero range. Now if I leave it plugged in say overnight for 7 hours, what happens?

Do I draw virtually nothing and is it bad?
 

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Deep Ocean in ATL
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If I understand your question... If you leave the Karma plugged in when it is fully charged, is it a problem? It seems not to be in my case, the Karma stops charging and the circuit seems to disconnect from the source. However, with the HV battery now charging the 12V system (520/530), when the HV battery drops slightly below a threshold, the Karma re-engages charger. This seems to cause the Karma contacts to "Pulse" for a very short period of time (sometimes just seconds). I am not sure whether this is harmful, but it seems problematic for a mechanical contact mechanism. Therefore, I disconnect mine in the morning and not leave plugged in while fully charged.

I will leave the Technical analysis to the CSP's here.
 

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So I know fro Chargepoint when my Fisker is charged it stops drawing major power is flatlines to zero range. Now if I leave it plugged in say overnight for 7 hours, what happens?

Do I draw virtually nothing and is it bad?
That's how it's supposed to work. The on-board charger turns on the juice until the battery is fully charged, and then it turns off the power. I have left my car plugged in for up to 3 weeks at a time, and the logs show that about once a day, the car wakes up and you see a short power spike on the log, and when it figures out that no charging is needed, it turns the juice off again and goes back to 0. Never had any issue with keeping my car plugged in for long periods of time.
 

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That's how it's supposed to work. The on-board charger turns on the juice until the battery is fully charged, and then it turns off the power. I have left my car plugged in for up to 3 weeks at a time, and the logs show that about once a day, the car wakes up and you see a short power spike on the log, and when it figures out that no charging is needed, it turns the juice off again and goes back to 0. Never had any issue with keeping my car plugged in for long periods of time.
The only issue one might have with charging the car for extended periods is if the battery pack's contactors are marginal. This is one of the weak areas of the A123 design, so it's a real concern.

Repetitive pulsing can cause premature failure. And if one contactor fails, CSPs will often recommend replacing the entire assembly. You are looking at 4 hours of labor and parts costs.
 

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also the fact that the A123 cells leak. small but essential fact with regards to any cells produced by them ymmv
Leaving the car on the charger for a day or two helps to keep the cells balanced. But if you are unlucky enough to have Livonia Leaker, the BECM will kick out P1B0X codes and CELs. In the very worst case, the car will shut down without warning. In any event, even one leaking cell (out of 300+ in the pack) will leave you with a tough choice: Replace the module (1-15) that has the bad cell, or replace the entire pack since one leaking cell does not bold well for the integrity of the rest of the battery.

Back in March, 2012, when all of the batteries were recalled, A123 said that only one of their 3 prismatic cell manufacturing lines was misaligned. They recalled all batteries because they didn't know which battery came from which line. BK intervened and few batteries were actually replaced.

Therefore, the probability of having a leaking battery now or in the future is around 30%.
 

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Leaving the car on the charger for a day or two helps to keep the cells balanced. But if you are unlucky enough to have Livonia Leaker, the BECM will kick out P1B0X codes and CELs. In the very worst case, the car will shut down without warning. In any event, even one leaking cell (out of 300+ in the pack) will leave you with a tough choice: Replace the module (1-15) that has the bad cell, or replace the entire pack since one leaking cell does not bold well for the integrity of the rest of the battery.

Back in March, 2012, when all of the batteries were recalled, A123 said that only one of their 3 prismatic cell manufacturing lines was misaligned. They recalled all batteries because they didn't know which battery came from which line. BK intervened and few batteries were actually replaced.

Therefore, the probability of having a leaking battery now or in the future is around 30%.
We have been unlucky with leaky defective cells if 30% is the range and have replaced them with our 40kwh packs. Much better in terms of usage as many major OEM's use this type of cell. Just thought it was par for the course with regards to the bad modules we had!
 

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Karma Enthusiast
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
We have been unlucky with leaky defective cells if 30% is the range and have replaced them with our 40kwh packs. Much better in terms of usage as many major OEM's use this type of cell. Just thought it was par for the course with regards to the bad modules we had!
Unlucky with packs you purchased or the original A123? I'm trying to figure out what you mean.
 

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Unlucky with packs you purchased or the original A123? I'm trying to figure out what you mean.

Original batteries that came with the car. Consumer Reports had the same issues with their vehicle. Loss of isolation etc.


The leaks would mostly occur at the corner of the cell pouch (supposed to be hermetically sealed) with evidence of electrolyte leakage. A123 manufacturing defect.

Quick google search shows that this was a relatively common issue for the AMP20 pouch cells

http://electricmiata.blogspot.com/2012/11/2-month-inspection-of-a123-cells.html
 

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I think he meant that the failure rate in @PowerSource's fleet was higher than 30%.
I just found this letter from the A123 CEO:

http://www.a123systems.com/Collater...e_LIV prismatic cell field campaign_FINAL.pdf

Here it says there were 4 production lines and only one needed to be "recalibrated." So the failure rate is closer to 25%? Field experience suggests otherwise, which means the inherent design is suspect. The good news is that KA is very aware of prior battery issues and is doing everything they can to ensure the Revero doesn't repeat the checkered history of the 2012 Karma, which for all intents and purposes is a prototype that was rushed to market.

On the flip side, for those of us who have patiently worked through our issues with dealers, CSPs and KA, the reward has been owning and proudly driving the best all-around vehicle in the world.
 

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Karma Enthusiast
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I just found this letter from the A123 CEO:

http://www.a123systems.com/Collater...e_LIV prismatic cell field campaign_FINAL.pdf

Here it says there were 4 production lines and only one needed to be "recalibrated." So the failure rate is closer to 25%? Field experience suggests otherwise, which means the inherent design is suspect. The good news is that KA is very aware of prior battery issues and is doing everything they can to ensure the Revero doesn't repeat the checkered history of the 2012 Karma, which for all intents and purposes is a prototype that was rushed to market.

On the flip side, for those of us who have patiently worked through our issues with dealers, CSPs and KA, the reward has been owning and proudly driving the best all-around vehicle in the world.
How do you tell...Can you tell if you have the issue? I am the 3rd owner of a very late build. I thought (assumed) it would not have this issue, would it?
 

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How do you tell...Can you tell if you have the issue? I am the 3rd owner of a very late build. I thought (assumed) it would not have this issue, would it?
Late builds are less likely to have problems. What is the last 4 digits of your VIN? You might have a Korean battery that is less failure-prone. (Keep in mind that ALL EV batteries, regardless of where they were manufactured, are not as reliable as an ICE. Google on the owners' blogs for Leafs, Prius', etc. and you'll see what I mean. Last month, a friend of mine with an early Prius, was stranded by a dead battery. It had to be towed to the dealer.)

If you have a defective battery or any other issue, the Karma will kick out error codes and CELs. It's a good idea to acquire an OBDII scanner such as:

https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3100-...F8&qid=1471468797&sr=1-1&keywords=innova+3100.

If you see 5-digit codes that start with P1xxx, that refers to a HV battery problem. P0xxx can be charging system/contactor related. U0xxx are communication errors with the Powertrain Control Module. That happens when the car goes to sleep and CSPs see those all the time. I'm told they're normal.

It takes the occurrence of 3 identical codes to trigger a CEL. If they are pending, you can erase them with the scanner so you can see your digital mileage readout. The car may also erase them after a few sleep cycles. However, if they are permanent, neither the car nor a scanner (like the one above) can clear them.

In any event, always contact your CSP if you see an error code or a CEL.
 

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I just saw your VIN. Duh.

2655 was one of the last Karmas built. @PowerSource might know. But I believe the production date was circa June 2012.

It should be pretty solid. But the car has a lot of complex technology in it and it's good to know about trouble codes in case something goes awry in the future.
 
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