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Full article here: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...igns-supply-agreement-with-bmw-300177421.html


COSTA MESA, Calif., Nov. 12, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Karma Automotive announced today that BMW has agreed to be a supplier in ensuring their vehicles are built with the highest quality automotive parts. BMW will supply Karma Automotive with their latest powertrain components, including high voltage battery charging systems and a wide range of hybrid and EV systems.

Throughout automotive history, BMW has been globally recognized for engineering and manufacturing world-class products. They are a proven technology leader and renowned for conceiving and delivering groundbreaking innovations.

Karma Automotive will integrate the first BMW components into its plug-in hybrid flagship vehicle, which will re-launch in 2016. The next generation of vehicles already in development will utilize more of BMW's powertrain technology.

"The Wanxiang Group is giving Karma Automotive the opportunity to bring a stunning car back to the market, and the partnership with BMW and their outstanding track record is a great fit for the future," said Karma's CEO Tom Corcoran. "We will continue to develop beautiful cars with the latest cutting edge hybrid and EV technology."

Co-founder Bernhard Koehler said; "I'm personally excited and incredibly proud we will be integrating the sophistication, integrity and character of the BMW powertrain into our own. Karma Automotive products and ultimately our customers will be the greatest benefactors of this fantastic relationship."

ABOUT KARMA AUTOMOTIVE, LLC.

Karma Automotive is a California based car company of luxury hybrid plug-in vehicles. Karma Automotive was established in 2014 by the Wanxiang Group, which purchased the assets of Fisker Automotive Inc., founded in 2007.

For more information, please go to http://karmaautomotive.com.

Logo - http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20150930/272335LOGO

SOURCE Karma Automotive
 

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Karma Automotive is going down the same path of buying all parts. This time with BMW instead of General Motors? The core technology is what of Karma Automotive? That is what bankrupted them last time, no core IP. Excited to hear what Karma Automotive has changed this time around.
 

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Their intellectual property is the body and interior. With such low production volume numbers, they be foolish to waste capital on designing a gas engine, buying a proven off the shelf GEN engine makes good sense. Every manufacturer does it at some point...
 

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The article talks about a charging system which is either the wall plug or charger on the car. The gas engine is for the Nina or some future Karma not the 2016 relaunch.

Every manufacturer outsources certain portions of the vehicle. Fisker Automotive previously outsourced the whole vehicle.

Why would they announce the use of a BMW charging system? Tesla I could understand but what is different about BMW charging?

We have seen the woes of intellectual property before with Fisker Automotive. Innovation comes in many forms and there has to be some technical backing behind a pretty face. If they go down the path of just designing shells the game will be over before it starts. You can't be an auto company and not be a technology company. Tesla has proven that and every single car maker has fallen suit. You either evolve or die.
 

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I think it is good - why re-invent the wheel. I personally don't care about anything but the reliability of the car and this is a far better choice than trying to do it alone.
 

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I#m affraid. I'm affraid of what may come to us. BMW will not sell it's upcoming components to Karma. It will be yesterday's technik.
I hab a BMW AH3,AH5, X6AH, AH7 both of them and now I'm glad to drive a Karma. Because this is the better Drivetrain.
So what will BMW will bring to us. The i8 technik? it's like the old X6AH but with a 3cyl. Like the i3? better!
I prefer a 50KW Car with a little Rangeextender and fast charger.

Between the lines I read a partnership witch brings BMW to the EV-Top-Class. Karma may get a more efficient Petrolmotor.

In Germany Hybrids can get a "E" Plate. No BMW! Karma Yes!
 

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Deja Vu all over again.
 

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From what I understood the Karma platform will use the same drivetrain as the first generation Karma . Future platforms will use the BMW drivetrain . BMW also had a lawsuit against Fisker Automotive
 

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BMW also had a lawsuit against Fisker Automotive

Do you have any further information? I thought, the drivetrain came from Quantum!? ... and Henrik did a tour to German automobile companies, to find partners in the last days of FA ... Why didn't they raise the issues at that time?
 

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What is not addressed here is cost of tooling for existing body parts and frame. I doubt very much that Valmet Automotive will give them all the tooling needed. So there will be a huge start-up cost for reproducing a 7 year old frame. It probably has to be back-compatible with existing Karmas, making it impossible for the car to shed weight. Even if they went the route of offering both EVER and electric versions (think Tesla), design of the existing frame will limit how much battery power they can cram into it. They should forget about Karma's existing shape and design new platform that will carry them into the future.
 

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The tooling for the new Karma will be the tooling used from Valmat factory. As mentioned they don't have the money for new tooling but the new Karma will have other changes .
 

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As we know the body is fine, haven't heard any complaints there. It still gets the same attention it did 5 years ago. Shedding weight is a tough one considering the model S is in the same heavyweight class, you could trade the ICE for battery and have the bigger range but weight will remain same. If you design a lighter chassis you will inevitably lose alot of the characteristics that make the car what it is. It will feel like a cheap car. Main focus will need to be on a more effecient GEN SET and better battery. Also a much more competitive feature set such as blind spot systems and forward radar etc (besides back lit steering wheel controls :D )
 

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The overall look of the Karma is (almost) perfect. I'm certain there will be some improvements coming for the next generation. For most people it'll be hard to tell, but for the rest of us the changes will be an improvement. All 5 sides you can see will change (a little). Probably less from the sides and top, but more from the front and back. I can't wait to see it.
 

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Can any of the experts weigh in on how this BMW deal is different than the previous BMW deal before bankruptcy?

Looking through the BK docs, Fisker previously had a tool usage and development agreement with General Motors for the tune of $3M/year

Previously Fisker had an engine purchase supply and development agreement with BMW for the Atlantic.

Can someone please explain how this BMW supply announcement is different than the previous announcement of 2011?


Below is the original press release from Sept 1, 2011:

Fisker Automotive Signs Supplier Agreement With BMW

ANAHEIM, Calif., Sept. 1, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Fisker Automotive announced today the signing of an agreement with BMW that will cover the supply of engines and other components for future Fisker models.

BMW will supply a four-cylinder turbocharged engine for the next generation of Fisker cars, code-named 'Project Nina', which are scheduled to go into production in the re-commissioned former GM plant in Wilmington, Delaware at the end of 2012 and be on sale globally in 2013.

The agreement calls for up to 100,000 engine units per year at peak volume.

The first 'Project Nina' derivative will be a mid-size premium sedan utilizing Fisker's EVer™ (electric vehicle with extended range) technology to deliver on Fisker's corporate vision of Uncompromised Responsible Luxury.

Fisker 's CEO and Executive Design Director, Henrik Fisker, comments; "The BMW engine was an obvious choice for us, as BMW is known for producing the best and most fuel efficient gasoline engines in the world. We are very pleased to have signed this agreement with BMW."

Fisker's Chief Operating Officer, Bernhard Koehler, adds; "This is an important agreement for Fisker. We are focused on building environmentally responsible cars that deliver Pure Driving Passion to our discerning customers. Who better to be a part of this exciting 'recipe' than BMW – the makers of the Ultimate Driving Machine?"

California-based Fisker Automotive recently established a European office in Munich, Germany and has publicly stated that both the Fisker Karma Sedan and 'Project Nina' lines are global vehicles with sales likely to be split equally in the US and Europe (40% each), with Asia (20%) providing the remainder.

ABOUT FISKER AUTOMOTIVE, INC.

Fisker Automotive is an American car company, founded in 2007, committed to producing electric vehicles with extended range (EVer) that deliver Uncompromised Responsible Luxury™. The Fisker Karma Sedan is the world's first premium electric plug-in hybrid representing the company's firm belief that environmentally conscious cars need not sacrifice passion, style, or performance. Fisker Automotive is a global company that is redefining luxury for the modern sports car buyer. For more information on the brand and the Fisker Karma sedan, please go to http://fiskerautomotive.com.

On a semi related note I remember at the time of the first Fisker/BMW announcement Carbon Motors had an agreement with BMW to source engines and other components.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043667_carbon-cop-cars-to-go-green-with-bmw-clean-diesel-engines
 

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My opinion how Karma succeeds

1. More EV miles- Volt has close to 60 real world and it will be less than 1/4 the price. If they re-launch with a same or less capacity pack, market demand will likely be weak at the rumored prices. Need 80+ real world to play in the premium PHEV market IMO. If the similar capacity pack is released at 20kwh I don't think the market will take.

2. Better performance & lower price (this has little to do with the current ICE but more the power electronics & battery). Still plenty can be squeezed out of the current package. Where BMW could help is with their materials technology (i.e plastic re-inforced CF etc). Get the weight down. Consolidate power electronics into one box. Right now there are 6 different "boxes" doing similar things on the vehicle- power conversion.

3 Inverters
SPBC
OBCM
APM

Consolidate these into a fewer amount of boxes using some of the same expensive components (igbts etc)). Could save weight, cost, complexity, space, supplier risk etc etc etc etc

3. Facelift- the most polarizing thing about the car is the front end. Update it modernize it, probably just need a new grill + minor tweaks (surf-esque like the original show car in 2010) and some minor tweaks. Problem is the logo, I am not a huge fan of it, prefer the classy Fisker one.

4. Electronics (ad-nauseam discussions)

5. NVH

I think they can fail with or without BMW doesn't really matter same deal as the GM one. Its not like BMW invested in Karma Automotive (like Daimler and Toyota did with Tesla along with Purchase Orders for components from Tesla). Long run this won't make or break them. Personally would have rather went with GM they have some interesting EV technologies and a "gigafactory" already operational in Michigan. GM's new engines are actually quite good but the key is their batteries and LG is the clear leader in battery technology today. All major OEM's are using them for propulsion:

Hyundai
Renault
Audi
GM
KIA
Mercedes
VW
Ford

Probably a bunch others I am missing.

Great thing is the larger the pack the greater the performance so the smaller the ICE you need. Solution here is simple increase pack capacity and reduce the amount of ICE you need and also get better performance!

The Samsung batteries used in the BMW have an advantage in that they are standardized but right now they don't have economies of scale and are still very pricey (as well as low energy density). The LG NMC batteries are way ahead of everyone else in the large polymer form factor.

My 2 cents
 

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Existing body shape does not allow for more battery packaging. Reducing size of the engine does not help much, I doubt that there will be any meaningful area where to put more batteries. Also having them too close to the engine would create another set of problems. That's why I think the frame needs to be redesigned. If you look at Tesla's platform, you can build any shape of car above that. Very smart. Instead of reviving old shape Karma should design the platform and see what fits on top of it. That is the only way forward.
 

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Existing body shape does not allow for more battery packaging. Reducing size of the engine does not help much, I doubt that there will be any meaningful area where to put more batteries. Also having them too close to the engine would create another set of problems. That's why I think the frame needs to be redesigned. If you look at Tesla's platform, you can build any shape of car above that. Very smart. Instead of reviving old shape Karma should design the platform and see what fits on top of it. That is the only way forward.

agree that a new "skateboard" platform is better, but it is obvious they are relaunching Karma at this point (with existing center tunnel) and battery density has increased significantly since the original Karma. You can fit more battery capacity in the existing center tunnel today than in 2011 and thus get better performance. I am not suggesting a reduction in engine size will allow for more batteries to be placed in the engine compartment but merely a smaller engine will reduce the weight and possibly increase efficiency of the vehicle. You can draw more current from a higher capacity pack so you will not need to depend on ICE for a lot of performance boost. The only proper place to package batteries in a Karma for production is in the center tunnel area; and with battery technology today you can get a higher capacity pack in the center tunnel than what came with the car in 2011.
 
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