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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I used to own ffcars.com for 8 years. FFCars.com is the largest Cobra replica discussion forum in with world. The site is geared to Factory Five cars.

Factory Five Racing started out by selling a Cobra replica that you could build by just buying a wrecked donor Mustang. All you needed was the FFR kit and the donor car; nothing more. FFR's concept allows every day Joe's to build a Cobra replica even if they have limited mechanical skills.

I built 3 of their cars and started the website to help other builders. Thousands of FFR cobras are on the road, in part because I gave people a place to help each other finish their dreams. I’ve made thousands of friends who would love to help tackle this job if I ever wanted to do it.

So I saw the list that Smoothoperator posted about what could be taken out of the Karma if it were none electric and it got me to thinking.

High Voltage Battery Pack
Traction Motor
Engine - GM 2.0L 2011 LDK TURBO/FISKER
Generator
Assembly, RDM Transaxle
Inverter
Inverter
Inverter
Battery Charger - Eflex On Board Charger Module (3.3kW)
HV Inv 3 (Gen.) HV DC Power Cable
DC-DC Converter
Electric Compressor
HV Mot 1 & 2HV AC Power Cable
Cable ASM-DRV MOT BAT Charger Rcpt. 110Volt US
HV Inv 1 &2 DC Power Cable
Fluid Heater (PTC)
LT Radiator & Shroud Sub Asm RH
LT Radiator & Shroud Sub Asm LH
LT Coolant Pump
Hybrid Control Module
LT Coolant Pump


I think the above would bring in $20,000-$30,000 if sold off 1 by 1 over time. Heck, these parts may be worth more, I just don't know.

I would add the following to the list:

A/C system
Center Display and any computers with it.
Gauges
Suspension parts
Brakes
Wiring harnesses
Fuel tank

So how hard would it be for Harleyguy or Lormax to strip a chassis clean?

Then buy a donor Corvette C6 with an automatic to make it an easier install. A 3-pedal box would be very hard to install.

The reason you would want a Corvette and not a ZL1, CTS-V or GTO is because the transmission placement. The Karma has very little room up front for a tranny. The C6 has a transaxle so the placement in the rear makes sense. It would also help balance the handling.

From the C6, I would need:

The complete chassis - drive train assembly like you see in the picture
Complete wiring harness and any ecms attached
A/C system
Brake booster and pcm
Both fuel tanks and pumps
Complete cooling system
All electrics (gauges, radio…)


Then to install:

- The center tunnel and drive shaft would need to be increased by 19". Any driveline shop can do that in a day.

- Create mounting points for the shocks.

- Wheels would need to be sourced that have a 2" neg offset from C6 Z06 stock on all 4 wheels. (the Karma is about 4" wider) One option would be to have aluminum wheel spacers made the mate to the stock C6 rotor and then to the stock Karma wheels. I don’t like spacers, but it would work on a temp basis. A good machine shop could handle that.

- Wiring to the headlights, turn signals, tail lights, brake light, power windows, power doors, locks, truck release, and wipers. These would be the only electrical thing left from the stock Karma.

- Remove all the airbags.

- Relocate the front cross member if the engine won't fit.

- Create mounting points to the stock C6 chassis to the Karma body. Try to use the stock C6 points because it’s easy.

- Mount the radiator.

- Extend all the rear brake lines from the C6 (add 19"). Very easy to do.

- Extend the fuel line from the C6; again very easy to make in your garage.

- Extend the wiring from the stock C6 rear wiring harness because the wheelbase is 19" longer (tail lights, trunk light, plate lighting, fuel pump, etc)

- Figure out a way to install a shifter through the tunnel. The link would need to be increased for the wheelbase.

- Use the C6 radio, vent controls, buttons, etc on the dash

- Use the C6 gauges, installed where the Karmas where.

- Once all the interior is put back together using C6 donor parts, have a high-end leather shop finish everything out to blend in what I have to cut up.

- Install a custom HVAC system if the C6 unit won't fit.

- Connect the steering shaft to the C6 rack.

- Connect the brake lines to the stock location, using the C6 booster.

- Have a body shop fill in the front exhaust vents.

- Route the exhaust out the back somehow.

- Mount the two fuel tanks somewhere.

- Figure out how to unlock the doors with the C6 remote.

- Install heat shields inside the tunnel because of the exhaust.


After assembly, a few things would need to be figured out.

- Do the stock C6 leaf springs handle the weight? If the stock springs can’t handle it, do a coil over conversion because you could use any Eibach spring for the corner’s weight and then adjust the ride height with a turn or two.

- How does the stock ecm handle not having any air bags hooked up to it?

- How does the stock ecm handle the weight of the car for traction control, ABS, and handling control?

- Is the engine able to get enough cooling?

- Are the fuel tanks big enough with the extra weight and less fuel mileage than a C6?


Just a start... but I could do this. It would take a few months…. And of course a donor Karma and wrecked Corvette.

Wrecked C6? $20,000

- Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Forgot...

Delete the solar panel or leave it hooked up to the 12v?

The C6 is a bottom feeder cooling system, so I don't think the grill would need to be changed.

Name badges.... they would have to go...
 

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Why on earth would anyone do *that*?! You'd have to go back to visiting gas stations on a regular basis and burning stinky, environmentally unfriendly fossil fuels. No thank you.

Now, if you figure out a way to take out the ICE and the current battery pack and replace them with a battery that will do 200 miles on a charge with similar horsepower to what the Karma currently offers, all without upsetting the weight distribution of the car, come talk to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Why on earth would anyone do *that*?! You'd have to go back to visiting gas stations on a regular basis and burning stinky, environmentally unfriendly fossil fuels. No thank you.

Now, if you figure out a way to take out the ICE and the current battery pack and replace them with a battery that will do 200 miles on a charge with similar horsepower to what the Karma currently offers, all without upsetting the weight distribution of the car, come talk to me.
It was just a thought after reading Smoothoperator's post.

I would rather have it stay evER, but there may come a time that it won't be possible for a broken Karma to be fixed for less than X $$$$.
 

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Then buy a donor Corvette C6 with an automatic to make it an easier install. A 3-pedal box would be very hard to install.

The reason you would want a Corvette and not a ZL1, CTS-V or GTO is because the transmission placement. The Karma has very little room up front for a tranny. The C6 has a transaxle so the placement in the rear makes sense. It would also help balance the handling.


- Bill
Once the generator is removed up front, you have a surprising amount of room. You could easily fit a 4L65e and a GTO powertrain in there with a little modification.

Also the suspension can be left stock. You really don't want to mess with the load leveling nivomat setup in back. Some really skilled suspension engineers created that design and it is actually a marvel of engineering. You could get a G-force to design a 9 inch pumpkin that would work back there.
 

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Why on earth would anyone do *that*?! You'd have to go back to visiting gas stations on a regular basis and burning stinky, environmentally unfriendly fossil fuels. No thank you.
If you have a toasted battery or a bad traction motor, RDM etc or any combination of these problems; parts alone could cost upwards of $50k. I was lucky enough to have the trifecta of Karma fail and sunk a ton of money into one of my Karma's. The kicker is that even some these replacement parts may exhibit the same faults and problems as the replaced parts. Unless you have unlimited funds and patience this is not a viable solution. If something goes wrong again I will pull all the EVER stuff out and put in a V8 or a diesel.

Now, if you figure out a way to take out the ICE and the current battery pack and replace them with a battery that will do 200 miles on a charge with similar horsepower to what the Karma currently offers, all without upsetting the weight distribution of the car, come talk to me.
You could always get a Model S and send it to Henrik Fisker to see what improvements he could come up with. I am sure he can do something to the Model S to make it look better (both inside and out).
 

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I have to chime in here, repair costs are nowhere near that amount.

Okay, here are the prices for parts straight from my invoice.


C131118001001 High Voltage Battery Pack 1 $26,442.18 $26,442.18
C131112101003 Traction Motor 2 $6,125.28 $12,250.56
C131112201001 Assembly, RDM Transaxle 1 $5,735.30 $5,735.30
C131119222000 High Voltage Single Connector Header, 3 Way Key A 1 $57.48 $57.48
C131119224000 High Voltage Single Connector Header, 3 Way, Key B 1 $64.09 $64.09
C131119242000 High Voltage Single Connector Terminal Block 2 $35.09 $70.18

With tax I was right up near $50k.. Would you be so kind to post your quoted prices for these parts new?
 

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Everybody is TALKING about converting Karma, but it seems that nobody has actually done it.

@ffcars: Believe me, once you start with the conversion, soon you will regret it. You will end up with half-baked, half-finished product that you will sell for parts at the end since it will not be worth sinking more money into the project. Just building new harness to mate new ecu to other parts of the car will be a nightmare. You have a better chance if you start from scratch.

Has there been any sighting of Destino car? News about company is now about 8 months old... have not seen any Destino's road tests at all...
 

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Everybody is TALKING about converting Karma, but it seems that nobody has actually done it.

@ffcars: Believe me, once you start with the conversion, soon you will regret it. You will end up with half-baked, half-finished product that you will sell for parts at the end since it will not be worth sinking more money into the project. Just building new harness to mate new ecu to other parts of the car will be a nightmare. You have a better chance if you start from scratch.

Has there been any sighting of Destino car? News about company is now about 8 months old... have not seen any Destino's road tests at all...
Fisker has a KarVette.

Like I said in another thread, the C6 would be the ideal car to swap parts for because in essence, the karma is a corvette


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 

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Can someone just drop in a c6 engine and drive train and connect up the other harness to the on board computers and exisitng electical systems ? do the brakes, shocks, and other items need to be replaced as ffcars states? what was described does not seem like a "simple" conversion...
 

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Thought about this a bit more....
From the C6, I would need:

The complete chassis - drive train assembly like you see in the picture
Complete wiring harness and any ecms attached
A/C system
Brake booster and pcm
Both fuel tanks and pumps
Complete cooling system
All electrics (gauges, radio…)


Then to install:

- The center tunnel and drive shaft would need to be increased by 19". Any driveline shop can do that in a day.

- Create mounting points for the shocks.

- Wheels would need to be sourced that have a 2" neg offset from C6 Z06 stock on all 4 wheels. (the Karma is about 4" wider) One option would be to have aluminum wheel spacers made the mate to the stock C6 rotor and then to the stock Karma wheels. I don’t like spacers, but it would work on a temp basis. A good machine shop could handle that.

HRE has wheels that will fit I believe P93L's I would stick with the Brembo's on the Karma. Stock C6 brakes would be a downgrade on the Karma. The original prototype had vette brakes.

- Wiring to the headlights, turn signals, tail lights, brake light, power windows, power doors, locks, truck release, and wipers. These would be the only electrical thing left from the stock Karma.
I believe all these are controlled over the CAN network- with safety systems being controlled over K-Line Best to strip the car completely. For this perhaps the switch gear from a CTS (CTS-V) may make more sense.

- Remove all the airbags.

- Relocate the front cross member if the engine won't fit.


- Create mounting points to the stock C6 chassis to the Karma body. Try to use the stock C6 points because it’s easy.
The Karma Transaxle could be salvaged, and the C6 diff assembly could be modified to use Karma Transaxle RDM mounting points.

- Mount the radiator.
- Extend all the rear brake lines from the C6 (add 19"). Very easy to do.

- Extend the fuel line from the C6; again very easy to make in your garage.
Original prototype used a fuel cell but a 9 gallon tank would be quite frustrating to use on the Karma. With all the space saved (i.e inverters being removed) you could probably double the capacity of the tank if a custom one was made that fit behind the rear seats.

- Extend the wiring from the stock C6 rear wiring harness because the wheelbase is 19" longer (tail lights, trunk light, plate lighting, fuel pump, etc)

- Figure out a way to install a shifter through the tunnel. The link would need to be increased for the wheelbase.

- Use the C6 radio, vent controls, buttons, etc on the dash

- Use the C6 gauges, installed where the Karmas where.

- Once all the interior is put back together using C6 donor parts, have a high-end leather shop finish everything out to blend in what I have to cut up.

- Install a custom HVAC system if the C6 unit won't fit.

- Connect the steering shaft to the C6 rack.

- Connect the brake lines to the stock location, using the C6 booster.

- Have a body shop fill in the front exhaust vents.

- Route the exhaust out the back somehow.

- Mount the two fuel tanks somewhere.

- Figure out how to unlock the doors with the C6 remote.

- Install heat shields inside the tunnel because of the exhaust.
I think adapting parts off a CTS would be easier.

Can someone just drop in a c6 engine and drive train and connect up the other harness to the on board computers and exisitng electical systems ? do the brakes, shocks, and other items need to be replaced as ffcars states? what was described does not seem like a "simple" conversion...

No this is not necessary although chances are that many of these computers may not play nice with each other. Theoretically it is possible if a custom plug and play harness is designed and the PCM is flashed appropriately.
 

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You could always get a Model S and send it to Henrik Fisker to see what improvements he could come up with. I am sure he can do something to the Model S to make it look better (both inside and out).

What about getting Telsa to put in the drive motors they have in the rear, remove the ice in the front and replace with a telsa modified battery pac of the model S (it seems reliable). Use the Telsa power charger (use the gas respecticale for the propiertary telsa plug) -- everything else could stay the same -- I assume the telsa pack could feed directly into the A123 battery -- what do the experts on this board think -- I'm sure karma owners could appeal to Elon to save them from Fisker management ? ;-)
 

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What about getting Telsa to put in the drive motors they have in the rear, remove the ice in the front and replace with a telsa modified battery pac of the model S (it seems reliable). Use the Telsa power charger (use the gas respecticale for the propiertary telsa plug) -- everything else could stay the same -- I assume the telsa pack could feed directly into the A123 battery -- what do the experts on this board think -- I'm sure karma owners could appeal to Elon to save them from Fisker management ? ;-)
At this point why not just buy a Tesla? ....It would be near impossible to do this without a major redesign. The battery chemistry is way different and much of the wiring on input side of the Karma is not designed for 10kw (let alone 120kw DC Supercharging). You would be better off getting a Model S, hiring Henrik to make the car look better and then hiring Alex Klatt to fix the interior.
 

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At this point why not just buy a Tesla? ....It would be near impossible to do this without a major redesign. The battery chemistry is way different and much of the wiring on input side of the Karma is not designed for 10kw (let alone 120kw DC Supercharging). You would be better off getting a Model S, hiring Henrik to make the car look better and then hiring Alex Klatt to fix the interior.
I had a reseravation on one before i bought the karma ;-) now that i own a karma, does it not make more sense to look for options to keep the karma? besides would it not cost more to get personalities to work together then it is for engineers to come up with solutions? ;-))
 

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I had a reseravation on one before i bought the karma ;-) now that i own a karma, does it not make more sense to look for options to keep the karma? besides would it not cost more to get personalities to work together then it is for engineers to come up with solutions? ;-))

The other option is to send your car to AC Propulsion and have them come up with a solution.

http://www.acpropulsion.com/
 

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Okay, here are the prices for parts straight from my invoice.

C131118001001 High Voltage Battery Pack 1 $26,442.18 $26,442.18
C131112101003 Traction Motor 2 $6,125.28 $12,250.56
C131112201001 Assembly, RDM Transaxle 1 $5,735.30 $5,735.30
C131119222000 High Voltage Single Connector Header, 3 Way Key A 1 $57.48 $57.48
C131119224000 High Voltage Single Connector Header, 3 Way, Key B 1 $64.09 $64.09
C131119242000 High Voltage Single Connector Terminal Block 2 $35.09 $70.18

With tax I was right up near $50k.. Would you be so kind to post your quoted prices for these parts new?
Most everything you mentioned can be rebuilt. The connectors can't, but then they are the cheapest parts on the list.
 
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