HV Battery Maintenance

7518 Views 24 Replies 13 Participants Last post by steven, Jun 17, 2014

fiskerjim

Discussion Starter · Dec 12, 2013

Looks like 40-80% range is the best way to treat our HV battery. Any other tips?

The proper way to nurture mobile device batteries is one of the most contested and and confusing topics in tech. That's because rechargeable battery technology has changed a lot over the past decade, and each of the four popular battery types--NiCd, NiMH, Li-Ion, Lithium polymer--differ slightly when it comes to how to extend its useful lifespan. For Lithium-ion polymer batteries, the kind that are in your thin and light laptops and smartphones, battery experts say that the ideal way to use them is to keep them charged to 80 percent, and only let them drain regularly to 40 percent. Why not go for a full charge? At 100%, the max voltage level puts the battery under some stress, which results in fewer overall discharge cycles (times you can recharge it). The 40-80% rule is easier said than done, but one thing you should not do is keep laptops permanently plugged into an outlet. That is, if you ever plan on using it as a laptop.

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

8AVGMPG

· #2 · Dec 13, 2013

40-60% SOC for the HV battery and stored in ambient temperatures between 14°F (-10°C) and 86°F (30°C) are the recommendations from Fisker.

SoCalGuy

· #3 · Dec 13, 2013

8AVGMPG said:
40-60% SOC for the HV battery and stored in ambient temperatures between 14°F (-10°C) and 86°F (30°C) are the recommendations from Fisker.

If you're saying that you shouldn't drain the battery below 60% SOC, then the car becomes comical as an 'EV' since that limits your usable electric miles to just 15-19 actual miles (100% - 60% = 40% of total capacity; 40% divided by 85% of total usable capacity = 47% of the 35-40 miles of EV range).

My thoughts: use your Karma as an EV... sure, in a few years you'll probably need to replace the battery, but by then batteries should be cheaper and maybe we'll have more options. Worst case is you'll just have to rely on the REx, but the bright side is your RDM/TMs will probably fail before then anyway making this discussion moot

Fabulist

· #4 · Dec 13, 2013

fiskerjim said:
Looks like 40-80% range is the best way to treat our HV battery. Any other tips?

The proper way to nurture mobile device batteries is one of the most contested and and confusing topics in tech. That's because rechargeable battery technology has changed a lot over the past decade, and each of the four popular battery types--NiCd, NiMH, Li-Ion, Lithium polymer--differ slightly when it comes to how to extend its useful lifespan. For Lithium-ion polymer batteries, the kind that are in your thin and light laptops and smartphones, battery experts say that the ideal way to use them is to keep them charged to 80 percent, and only let them drain regularly to 40 percent. Why not go for a full charge? At 100%, the max voltage level puts the battery under some stress, which results in fewer overall discharge cycles (times you can recharge it). The 40-80% rule is easier said than done, but one thing you should not do is keep laptops permanently plugged into an outlet. That is, if you ever plan on using it as a laptop.

SoCalGuy said:
If you're saying that you shouldn't drain the battery below 60% SOC, then the car becomes comical as an 'EV' since that limits your usable electric miles to just 15-19 actual miles (100% - 60% = 40% of total capacity; 40% divided by 85% of total usable capacity = 47% of the 35-40 miles of EV range).

My thoughts: use your Karma as an EV... sure, in a few years you'll probably need to replace the battery, but by then batteries should be cheaper and maybe we'll have more options. Worst case is you'll just have to rely on the REx, but the bright side is your RDM/TMs will probably fail before then anyway making this discussion moot

At first I thought the tips were for storing the Karma, not daily use. I am sure you can also extend an ICE-powered car's life by driving it only below 45 MPH, but that is going to seriously impact the utility of the car and no one drives their cars that way. Same applies with the Karma. Aside from everything else, it needs to be a usable car. Using only 15% of the battery capacity on a daily basis is not really practical.

8AVGMPG

· #5 · Dec 13, 2013

I assumed this was about storage as well.

SoCalGuy

· #6 · Dec 13, 2013

If this is for storing, makes way more sense! I leave my Karmas unused for 2-3 weeks at a time and store them with as close to 50% SOC as possible.

fiskerjim

Discussion Starter · #7 · Dec 13, 2013

SoCalGuy said:
If this is for storing, makes way more sense! I leave my Karmas unused for 2-3 weeks at a time and store them with as close to 50% SOC as possible.

That's my plan guys. I also try not to drain the HV and also try to not routinely charge to 100%. The battery technology should catch up to us and hopefully a restored company

Many thanks.

Ira

· #8 · Dec 14, 2013

Here's a graph for capacity retention vs storage time in weeks:

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fiskerjim

Discussion Starter · #9 · Dec 14, 2013

Ira said:
Here's a graph for capacity retention vs storage time in weeks:

Txs Ira.

fiskerjim

Discussion Starter · #10 · Feb 5, 2014

I wanted the forum to see this article as it seems like we as Fisker owners could benefit from the release of this technology. Any options from our tech side?

Tim Sherstyuk, head of Gbatteries, works from his home office in Mountain View, Calif. He is shopping his battery technology to major players in the consumer electronics and energy storage industries. (Kim White/Special to The Globe and Mail)
THE CHALLENGE
Long-life laptop battery the tech industry doesn’t want you to have

Fed up with the dwindling battery life of his BlackBerry Bold 9000, Carleton University chemistry student Tim Sherstyuk took a straightforward problem to his electrical engineer dad, Nick: Could the two of them come up with the technology to make a standard lithium-ion battery last longer?

Lithium-ion batteries are the rechargeable life forces powering most portable consumer electronics. If you have a smartphone or laptop, there’s a good chance you’ve also dashed for a power outlet in a public space once your device reached its first birthday.

After a year of trial and error, the Ottawa-based father-son duo hit an engineering bull’s-eye. By pairing batteries with their own special printed circuit board, they were able to increase a battery’s capacity by 30 per cent. Their battery management system also boosted the number of recharging cycles available. Today’s standard lithium-ion batteries are good for about 300 cycles; the Sherstyuks boosted this to an amazing 2,500.

“The best analogy I can make is, inside the battery there’s something called the SEI layer, and it’s kind of like the plaque on your teeth,” explains the younger Mr. Sherstyuk, 20, who dropped out of school to focus on building the business. “As time goes on, this layer grows and it stops the battery from charging as much as before.

“Our technology is able to electronically maintain this layer and keep it very small, so we’re essentially brushing this battery’s teeth,” he adds.

In 2012, the father-son team patented the technology under the company Gbatteries Systems Inc., and they’re shopping it to major players in the consumer electronics and energy storage industries. They recently relocated to California’s Silicon Valley to test the waters there, although they will keep their headquarters in Ottawa for all development-based work.

Mr. Sherstyuk believes their market edge comes from the fact that they are “using already mass produced batteries and making them work better.”

But at the same time, he’s adamant about promoting the product’s consumer and environmental benefits. Increased calendar life means Joe Laptop won’t have to shell out for a new machine as often. This means fewer dead batteries leaking their toxic innards into landfill earth.

“I would like to do something good for the world, personally, and I think that right now I have the opportunity,” Mr. Sherstyuk says.

Unfortunately, these altruistic intentions are not finding a receptive audience along Technology Row. While he remains focused on promoting the increased calendar life, Mr. Sherstyuk says most of the major players he has met with so far are interested only in the increased capacity and, in fact, want to downplay the longer life. The reason, he says, is that these companies have expressed concern that the longer-lasting batteries will result in fewer units sold, as consumers will be able to hang on to their devices for much longer.

Though their technology would end up increasing calendar life regardless of the way it is marketed, Mr. Sherstyuk feels strongly about aligning with retail partners who share the same value system and are willing to promote its environmental benefits.

While a number of smaller companies have expressed interest in this, Mr. Sherstyuk has held back before jumping into any partnerships. He says he’s aware he has a potentially game-changing product and wants to make sure that, as a newly minted entrepreneur, he’s leveraging his company’s potential to the widest and most lucrative market possible.

THE CHALLENGE: Does Mr. Sherstyuk risk torpedoing the success of his company if he holds too firmly to his ethical beliefs?

See less See more

Sandy Eggo

· #11 · Feb 5, 2014

Hmm, not sure that device would work with the battery chemistry present in the HV Lithium Ion batteries we have. Seems this is directed at consumer Lithium Ion devices like laptops, cellphones, etc.

zeno

· #12 · Feb 5, 2014 (Edited)

I don't think the graph above is for a123 batteries of lithium iron chemistry batteries which have excellent long term storage storage potential. If I am riding the link correct 30% loss over 15 years.
I also don't see where storing at 50% or 60% soc is beneficial.
See:

http://www.rc-netbutik.dk/getdoc.asp?id=100&md5hash=9810C237586CF6B4325753101E37DAE1

SoCalGuy

· #13 · Feb 5, 2014

zeno said:
I don't think the graph above is for a123 batteries of lithium iron chemistry batteries which have excellent long term storage storage potential. If I am riding the link correct 30% loss over 15 years.
I also don't see where storing at 50% or 60% soc is beneficial.
See:

http://www.rc-netbutik.dk/getdoc.asp?id=100&md5hash=9810C237586CF6B4325753101E37DAE1

That loss is just for time storage (at 60 deg C or 140 deg F).

SoCalGuy

· #14 · Feb 5, 2014

fiskerjim said:
I wanted the forum to see this article as it seems like we as Fisker owners could benefit from the release of this technology. Any options from our tech side?

Tim Sherstyuk, head of Gbatteries, works from his home office in Mountain View, Calif. He is shopping his battery technology to major players in the consumer electronics and energy storage industries. (Kim White/Special to The Globe and Mail)
THE CHALLENGE
Long-life laptop battery the tech industry doesn’t want you to have

Fed up with the dwindling battery life of his BlackBerry Bold 9000, Carleton University chemistry student Tim Sherstyuk took a straightforward problem to his electrical engineer dad, Nick: Could the two of them come up with the technology to make a standard lithium-ion battery last longer?

Lithium-ion batteries are the rechargeable life forces powering most portable consumer electronics. If you have a smartphone or laptop, there’s a good chance you’ve also dashed for a power outlet in a public space once your device reached its first birthday.

After a year of trial and error, the Ottawa-based father-son duo hit an engineering bull’s-eye. By pairing batteries with their own special printed circuit board, they were able to increase a battery’s capacity by 30 per cent. Their battery management system also boosted the number of recharging cycles available. Today’s standard lithium-ion batteries are good for about 300 cycles; the Sherstyuks boosted this to an amazing 2,500.

“The best analogy I can make is, inside the battery there’s something called the SEI layer, and it’s kind of like the plaque on your teeth,” explains the younger Mr. Sherstyuk, 20, who dropped out of school to focus on building the business. “As time goes on, this layer grows and it stops the battery from charging as much as before.

“Our technology is able to electronically maintain this layer and keep it very small, so we’re essentially brushing this battery’s teeth,” he adds.

In 2012, the father-son team patented the technology under the company Gbatteries Systems Inc., and they’re shopping it to major players in the consumer electronics and energy storage industries. They recently relocated to California’s Silicon Valley to test the waters there, although they will keep their headquarters in Ottawa for all development-based work.

Mr. Sherstyuk believes their market edge comes from the fact that they are “using already mass produced batteries and making them work better.”

But at the same time, he’s adamant about promoting the product’s consumer and environmental benefits. Increased calendar life means Joe Laptop won’t have to shell out for a new machine as often. This means fewer dead batteries leaking their toxic innards into landfill earth.

“I would like to do something good for the world, personally, and I think that right now I have the opportunity,” Mr. Sherstyuk says.

Unfortunately, these altruistic intentions are not finding a receptive audience along Technology Row. While he remains focused on promoting the increased calendar life, Mr. Sherstyuk says most of the major players he has met with so far are interested only in the increased capacity and, in fact, want to downplay the longer life. The reason, he says, is that these companies have expressed concern that the longer-lasting batteries will result in fewer units sold, as consumers will be able to hang on to their devices for much longer.

Though their technology would end up increasing calendar life regardless of the way it is marketed, Mr. Sherstyuk feels strongly about aligning with retail partners who share the same value system and are willing to promote its environmental benefits.

While a number of smaller companies have expressed interest in this, Mr. Sherstyuk has held back before jumping into any partnerships. He says he’s aware he has a potentially game-changing product and wants to make sure that, as a newly minted entrepreneur, he’s leveraging his company’s potential to the widest and most lucrative market possible.

THE CHALLENGE: Does Mr. Sherstyuk risk torpedoing the success of his company if he holds too firmly to his ethical beliefs?

If this checks out technically, this would be something Tesla would benefit greatly from and would be incentivized to implement (would alleviate battery replacement concerns while lessening costs associated with their battery warranty). Recall that they use more or less off-the-shelf Panasonic 18650 commodity cells.

smoothoperator

· #15 · Feb 5, 2014

SoCalGuy said:
If this checks out technically, this would be something Tesla would benefit greatly from and would be incentivized to implement (would alleviate battery replacement concerns while lessening costs associated with their battery warranty). Recall that they use more or less off-the-shelf Panasonic 18650 commodity cells.

Tesla uses a proprietary cell chemistry so far from being off the shelf (other than the form factor).

ct-fiskerbuzz

· #16 · Feb 5, 2014

smoothoperator said:
Tesla uses a proprietary cell chemistry so far from being off the shelf (other than the form factor).

Huh, I thought they were standard lithium cobalt oxide. (Hence the fire danger.)

This page has an interesting comparison of lithium cell chemistries. Note that lithium iron phosphate (A123 battery chemistry) has longer life and much lower risk of fire, with the drawback of less energy in the battery by weight-and-volume.

smoothoperator

· #17 · Feb 6, 2014

ct-fiskerbuzz said:
Huh, I thought they were standard lithium cobalt oxide. (Hence the fire danger.)

This page has an interesting comparison of lithium cell chemistries. Note that lithium iron phosphate (A123 battery chemistry) has longer life and much lower risk of fire, with the drawback of less energy in the battery by weight-and-volume.

No they use a LiNiCoAlO2 cathode material, aluminum cap, different call case, different cathode geometry and a bunch of other crap. Read more here:

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asulil

· #18 · Feb 6, 2014 (Edited)

SoCalGuy said:
That loss is just for time storage (at 60 deg C or 140 deg F).

I dont understand how that graph above is showing something different than the one below (or referenced in my link earlier). The graph above says the battery loses about 25% in 12 weeks at 60degrees, while the graph below from a A123 research paper says it loses about 23% over 15 YEARS at 60 degrees - thats a big difference - i hope my tone doesn't come off as argumentative - because it isn't - honestly trying to understand.

thanks

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steven

· #19 · Jun 16, 2014

Leaving my car for a month

SoCalGuy said:
That loss is just for time storage (at 60 deg C or 140 deg F).

I'm getting ready to spend a month out of town ( Cupertino area, having lunch with a couple of fiskerbuzz members).

I'll have the trickle charger on. Should I leave the 240 volt HV charger plugged in for a month as well?

Any advice would be helpful.

Ira

· #20 · Jun 17, 2014

steven said:
I'm getting ready to spend a month out of town ( Cupertino area, having lunch with a couple of fiskerbuzz members).

I'll have the trickle charger on. Should I leave the 240 volt HV charger plugged in for a month as well?

Any advice would be helpful.

I have the same question.

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