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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It had already been in the air for a while, but it looks as if Fisker has decided the price of $ 87.900 for the Fisker Karma was not realistic anymore. According to this media report, which quotes an e-mail by Fisker of Santa Monica, the car will go on sale for $ 95.900 (Eco Standard), $ 103.900 (Eco Sport) and $ 108.900 (Eco Chic).

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1052855_2011-fisker-karma-final-pricing-goes-up-again-to-95900

Last week there was word that the European dealers had also set a higher price: € 95.000 for the Sport-version compared to an estimate for € 88.000 earlier this year.

Personally I think you still get a lot of car - styling, technology, luxury, practicallity - for the money, especially when compared to a $ 105.000 Tesla Roadster, but also to a Jaguar or high-end Lexus, Audi or BMW.

The 2011 Fisker Karma is still on track to reach U.S. dealers in March or April, according to the company.

But there's one new piece of info: The price of the extended-range electric sports sedan has gone up. Again.

Originally announced in 2008 at a price of $80,000, the Karma fairly quickly went up to $87,900 and stayed there. Now, just before launch, 'final pricing' has risen another $8,000.

Based on an e-mail forwarded to us last night and originally sent by Fisker of Santa Monica, the final pricing for the 2011 Fisker Karma is:

•Eco Standard: $95,900
•Eco Sport: $103,900
•Eco Chic: $108,900

There's also a mandatory destination charge of $950 on top of those prices.

Karmas are eligible for a $7,500 Federal income-tax credit as well as a variety of state and local incentives. In California, the car may qualify for a $5,000 purchase rebate on top of the Federal allowance.

Options for the 2011 Fisker Karma run as follows:

•Tri-Tone Leather Interior: $2,200
•Diamond Dust Paint: $3,000
•"Special Paint": $3,000

The Fisker Karma order guide shows all the available colors, as well as various other choices for future owners to make.

According to the dealer's e-mail, test drives will be available in late February or early March.

Fisker exhibited its prototype Karma at each of its dealers in a lengthy U.S. national tour last summer.

The company hasn't released final specifications, but the 2011 Karma is expected to travel 50 miles using only electricity from the battery. After its lithium-ion battery pack is depleted, a range-extending 2.0-liter direct-injected four-cylinder GM Ecotec engine switches on.

The engine turns a generator that produces electricity to operate the drive motors for a further 250 miles of range.The rear wheels are powered by a pair of 150-kilowatt electric motors. Fisker has quoted a 0-to-62-mph time of less than 6 seconds, and a maximum speed of more than 125 miles per hour.
 

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Bummer. At ~$90k (after federal credit) it seemed like a great deal, but as it approaches $100k it gets a little harder to justify buying a 1st generation car from an unproven company. I'll still probably order one, but it is no longer a no-brainer at the revised price.

-Brian
 

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http://fiskerbuzz.com/2010/12/karma-pricing-increases-to-95900.html

Several points worth noting:

In 2008, pricing was originally estimated to be around $80,000. This estimate was then more clearly defined in 2009 as an MSRP of $87,900 and has now increased another $8,000 to the final pricing of $95,900 for the EcoStandard model.

While the increased pricing may force some deposit holders to reconsider, it should be noted that the Karma will arrive with more standard feature content than originally planned.

The Karma’s solar roof, the largest continuous and most highly curved solar roof in a passenger car, was planned to be a $5,000 option. The roof is now standard.

With an MSRP of $95,900 the Karma is within 10% of the originally announced MSRP of $87,900 announced in 2009 – an incremental change over the course of two years.

At $88,400 after federal tax incentives, the Karma is within $500 of its originally announced MSRP of $87,900. Local incentives offer additional savings.

The Karma starts $1,400 less than a Porsche Panamera S (both 400hp) after $7500 federal tax incentives are applied. Local incentives offer additional savings. Additionally, the Karma is significantly more efficient and will be much more exclusive.

The Karma starts $19,500 less than a similarly-equipped Tesla Roadster — $20,500 less when you include destination charges.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
European prices have been announced today:

EcoStandard € 85.500 (ex. VAT)
EcoSport € 93.500 (ex. VAT). Includes leather, better audio system, sat nav, parking aid (not sure)
EcoChic € 98.500 (ex. VAT)

(Average European VAT is 18-20%)

EcoStandard has no options available, EcoSport has as options tri-tone leather (€ 2.100), diamond dust paint (shadow, silver wind and ocean; € 2.700) and special paint (inferno; € 2.700).

Production will start on February 21. First deliveries to customers end of March / beginning of April.


EDIT: Price for EcoStandard is € 85.500, and not € 88.500 as I accidently wrote yesterday.
 

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Wow, it's going to be expensive in Europe. Isn't the exchange rate like 1.3 dollars to the EUR? So the EcoSport would be like $150k after VAT? Now I feel like I'm getting a pretty good deal here in the US at only around $104k after taxes.

-Brian
 

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brian said:
Wow, it's going to be expensive in Europe. Isn't the exchange rate like 1.3 dollars to the EUR? So the EcoSport would be like $150k after VAT? Now I feel like I'm getting a pretty good deal here in the US at only around $104k after taxes.

-Brian
For comparison, a BMW 7-Series ActiveHybrid retails for € 105.900 in Europe while in the U.S. it's priced at $102,300. That pricing difference is fairly standard for luxury cars in the U.S. market vs. Europe.

No comparison to the Karma in terms of exterior appeal however:

 

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Some deposit holders have been deterred by the price increase:

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20101229/BUSINESS/12290314

Delaware Online said:
Brad Galer, a pharmaceutical executive from West Chester, Pa., is faced with a dilemma.

He is weighing whether to buy a soon-to-be-released $96,000 hybrid sedan from startup carmaker Fisker Automotive or to sink that money into a bottling line for his winery.

A high-class headache, to be sure.

But Fisker's recent move to add $8,000 to the base price of the Karma, a sports sedan and Fisker's first car, is helping Galer settle on a move: he will buy the bottling line next year and put off the Fisker purchase until 2012.

"I think [the price] would definitely sway my decision," said Galer, who has placed a deposit on a new Karma with Wilmington's Union Park Automotive Group, Delaware's only Fisker dealer. "It would definitely sway my wife's decision."

Fisker raised some eyebrows recently by hiking the base price of the Karma from about $87,900 to $95,900, a 9 percent increase.

Fully loaded models will go for as much as $109,850, including a $950 destination fee. (The highest price is for the EcoChic version of the Karma, which includes recycled suede and paint for the fancy environmentalist.) Federal tax incentives should reduce the purchase price by $7,500.

The Karma is expected to reach early customers in March. More than 3,000 people have put down deposits to reserve a car, which is powered by a rechargeable lithium-ion battery and can run on electricity alone for 50 miles after a full charge.

Contractor Valmet Automotive is building the first Karmas in Finland. Valmet is scheduled to turn out 15,000 Karmas a year once it reaches full production early next year. Fisker has said that production of the Karma will move to Delaware by 2016.

In late 2012, Fisker plans to begin production of its second line of plug-in hybrids -- the Project Nina -- in Delaware. Using state incentives, the company spent $20 million over the summer to buy General Motors' old Boxwood Road assembly facility near Newport. A Nina sedan is expected to be priced around $47,000.

Fisker spokesman Russell Datz played down concerns about the Karma's new price tag.

"A 9 percent increase is really very small, and we don't expect that to be a factor with our more than 3,000 depositors," he said by e-mail.

Plus, a solar roof is now included as a standard feature, Datz said. That would have cost $5,000 as an option, he said.

Jim Ursomarso, vice president of Union Park in Wilmington, does not expect the high price to chase away customers.

Ursomarso said the dealership has begun aggressively marketing the car recently, sending out brochures to well-heeled customers.

A handful of people have already put down deposits with Union Park -- typically $5,000 -- to reserve a Karma.

"If you look at comparable cars ... it's actually a very attractive price point," Ursomarso said.

Not everyone is so confident.

Pike Research electric-car analyst John Gartner said the new price more closely aligns Fisker's Karma with established models like Mercedes S-class sedans and SL-class roadsters, which start north of $90,000.

"Most people who are going to spend $80,000-plus have more wiggle room when they go to make a purchase," Gartner said. "But still, with an extra $10,000 ... now they're moving up into a higher class."

He also said consumers in other countries -- particularly in China, where Fisker is making a big push -- may be turned off by the higher price.

"It will affect the buying decisions much more in a place like China. There's just a smaller number of people who have that financial flexibility," Gartner said. "For some, it might be pushing it out of their reach."
 

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Part of me is actually happy about the price increase because:

1) a percentage of people will cancel their reservations, ergo, I'll get mine sooner!

2) they'll sell fewer which means mine will be more rare.

But I really want Fisker to succeed, and at the old price it was a great deal for the car - it would have been a Tesla killer for sure. But now it's going to be a harder sell for a lot of people, so it does concern me a bit.

-Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
brian said:
Wow, it's going to be expensive in Europe. Isn't the exchange rate like 1.3 dollars to the EUR? So the EcoSport would be like $150k after VAT? Now I feel like I'm getting a pretty good deal here in the US at only around $104k after taxes.

-Brian
Cars in Europe are usually pretty expensive, mainly due to VAT. With European cars, like the BMW 5-series, the difference is less big.

Because of this price difference I have considered buying the Karma in the US, and then shipping it to Europe. But then there are transport charges and you have to make some changes to make it road legal. In the end the difference is not big enough to go through all the hassle.

Here in The Netherlands we have an extra 40% car tax, which makes our cars the most expensive in Europe. Luckily this tax does not apply for eco-friendly cars like the Karma (the limit is less than 95 grams of CO2 per kilometer).

Buying a Karma EcoSport in Europe will you set you back €113.000 ($147.000). Fortunately I own a business and I can buy it as my company car, profiting from all kinds of tax deductions, including those for green cars. This way I will pay only € 28.000 ($36.680) ! This must be the reason why Fisker of The Netherlands is one of the biggest sellers of Karma's: 100 already. I was told that most of these buyers are business men.

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brian said:
Part of me is actually happy about the price increase because:

1) a percentage of people will cancel their reservations, ergo, I'll get mine sooner!

2) they'll sell fewer which means mine will be more rare.

But I really want Fisker to succeed, and at the old price it was a great deal for the car - it would have been a Tesla killer for sure. But now it's going to be a harder sell for a lot of people, so it does concern me a bit.

-Brian
Same mixed feelings here. It is nice to be driving a unique car, of which there aren't many around. But I think my wish for Fisker to succeed as a green car company is the stronger feeling. I do hope they can beat the odds and are here to stay. Although I guess they will have to form an alliance with one of the bigger players to secure a bright future (like Tesla has aleady done with Mercedes and Toyota).
 

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Agreed. Their only chance for long-term survival is to partner up with someone bigger. In the short term, however, they'll probably do an IPO to raise more cash, but inevitably they need a partner.

-Brian
 

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brian said:
Agreed. Their only chance for long-term survival is to partner up with someone bigger. In the short term, however, they'll probably do an IPO to raise more cash, but inevitably they need a partner.

-Brian
From a November Reuters article:

http://fiskerbuzz.com/forums/Thread-Fisker-will-sell-in-China-open-to-partners

Reuters said:
Fisker also said that he had some discussions with larger automakers about a "strategic partnership."

He did not name the other companies involved in those discussions, but said he would be open to considering partners from Europe, Asia or the United States.

Such a deal could parallel the tie-up between start-up Tesla Motors (TSLA.O) and industry-leader Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) announced earlier this year.

"A strategic partnership with somebody, that's a possibility," Fisker said. "We have had talks with several car companies about that, but it has to be not only the right timing but the right fit."
Considering the fact that Fisker already has an existing partnership with GM for the 2.0L range-extender, I'd wager that GM must be a top contender for any future partnership with a larger OEM.
 

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I'm not sure what GM would get out of the deal, however. It almost seems like a partnership with Aston Martin would make more sense since Aston is desperate to get a cool Eco car to offset their CO2 average. That Cygnet piece of crap that they're coming out with next year isn't going to cut it. But then again, Aston kinda needs to partner up with someone too.

Maybe Mercedes should buy Aston and Aston buy Fisker... that would make a happy family I think.

-Brian
 

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Here's the thing. Many of us have waited well over 2 years for the car after putting down a deposit. Since we're going to be "influencers" for Fisker and the technology in our regions, the least the company could do is to waive the silly add-on costs (paint color, interior styling) that add to the new base pricing. It would be a nice gesture for early adopters, cost the company very little in real dollars (Euros), and make the ultimate buying decision (I'm re-evaluating) easier.

It seems that Fisker has been tone deaf in its treatment of early adopters. Sending me a matchbox car last month is simply not enough to offset what I perceive as "nickel and dime" add-on costs that could be waived.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I think you are right, Roger. There are many people who have supported Fisker from the start, who put deposits down ($1000, later $5000), have since waited patiently for two or three years, have endured the delays and now a cost increase, but still haven't waivered. Because they believe in Fisker!

It would be nice if Fisker would show appreciation for these early supporters (#1-1000 for instance), who by making a deposit already such a long time ago gave the company a base to build on, and may have even helped to attract investors (it's easier to talk to investors if you already have 1200 orders in the books). But not just appreciation in a token way. Choosing the color or interior of your liking, without the extra cost, would be a very nice way of Fisker to show that it really appreciates these early fans.
 

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Hi,

I signed the pre-order for my car and paid the deposit in 2008.
After almost three years of waiting and all the bad news in the last weeks make me thinking about leaving the train.
In between I had a Lexus IS-F sold in already again because the car should come in the beginning of 2011, but I receive no informations from my dealer.
Last thing I heard that I have to specify my specs till the end of 2010, but that's it. No pricelist, no details, nothing.
 

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I just noticed that the Karma and Porsche Panamera S are the same price. I'm starting to see some flaws in Fisker's positioning of the Karma both in price and marketing it as a eco sports sedan.
 

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I considered the $87,500 price point to be at the top end of what I am willing to spend for a car (even an amazing one like the Karma). So I have to admit that Fisker lost me with this price increase. Best wishes to everyone else!
 

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100MPGinMD said:
I considered the $87,500 price point to be at the top end of what I am willing to spend for a car (even an amazing one like the Karma). So I have to admit that Fisker lost me with this price increase. Best wishes to everyone else!
Yeah, the more I talk with people about this the more I'm worried for Fisker at the new price point. Even with the tax credit this is still a $100k+ car and that could spell trouble for them. I'm still going to get one, but I'm right on the edge, so if anything happens to cause the price to go up farther I may bail out.

The only way Fisker can survive in that price range is if the reviews of the car are outstandingly good, but honestly I'm not sure how good it could really be at 5000lbs and a slow 0-60 of 5.9 seconds (slower with passengers and a full tank of gas).

-Brian
 

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brian said:
100MPGinMD said:
I considered the $87,500 price point to be at the top end of what I am willing to spend for a car (even an amazing one like the Karma). So I have to admit that Fisker lost me with this price increase. Best wishes to everyone else!
Yeah, the more I talk with people about this the more I'm worried for Fisker at the new price point. Even with the tax credit this is still a $100k+ car and that could spell trouble for them. I'm still going to get one, but I'm right on the edge, so if anything happens to cause the price to go up farther I may bail out.

The only way Fisker can survive in that price range is if the reviews of the car are outstandingly good, but honestly I'm not sure how good it could really be at 5000lbs and a slow 0-60 of 5.9 seconds (slower with passengers and a full tank of gas).
It's still not too late for Fisker to lock in those of us on this list with some concession in "options pricing." It doesn't have to be big, just something. Think about it ... for every order they save, they could provide a $5K concession to 20 people on the list. Saving 50 cancellations for a car now well over $100K and it pays for small concessions to the first 1000 list holders.

Hope someone at Fisker is reading (listening).
 

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I doubt they'd do that. I think they need to make as much $ as possible right out of the gate so that the company looks viable. That way they can offer their IPO on solid ground.

Really the best thing they can do is to announce some special feature that they've been keeping secret. Some kind of bonus to make us all happy despite the price increases and delays.

-Brian
 
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