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brian said:
Yes, the Leaf should get infinite MPG. It should also have a number on the sticker that indicates the Miles-Per-Charge and other relevant information for an EV.
I guess you haven't seen the examples of the 2013 EPA stickers. Here's one for the Volt:



brian said:
The MPGe is useless and requires knowledge of calculus and theoretical quantum physics to figure out. When buying an EV all I care about is how far it'll go on a charge. For PHEV's I only want to know two things: how far it will go on a charge, and what my MPG is after the battery dies
Calculus, you're kidding, right? MPGe is exactly the opposite: by being an equivalent number, you just compare using subtraction.

Besides, the sticker has what you asked for: a nice graphic showing EV range followed by gas range, MPGe for EV mode, MPG for gas mode, costs for both modes if you were to stay in them exclusively, then pollution figures for a standard 15K miles/year combo, and a cost table depending on how many miles you drive between charges.


brian said:
Yep, exactly, but the condition of a $3 spark plug isn't going to factor into resale value or be anything a buyer is going to ask about. A $30,000 battery will, however.
Good thing you're not trying to skew things by not talking about ICE resale factors like timing belts and engine rebuilds, or raising your own claimed cost of the Tesla battery to $30K while ignoring that you can warranty it for $12K today.
 
This is a major advantage with the Tesla S as getting a new battery is very simple, no major disassembly to get to it. It is also the reason the whole battery swap Project Better Place idea will never catch on. If I bought a warranty for MY battery, it obviously isn't going to transfer over to a swapped out battery. Secondly, the Tesla S, makes it much easier to upgrade to aftermarket batteries like those made of lithium titanate that would allow the car to be fully recharged in less than 10 minutes. Most battery chemistries and deisgns today cannot take full advantage of the power that level 3 recharging can provide, like Aerovironment's EV-250, which can supply 250kw of power, specs show an output of 550A at the 480v spec of Level 3.
 
kabalah70 said:
It is also the reason the whole battery swap Project Better Place idea will never catch on. If I bought a warranty for MY battery, it obviously isn't going to transfer over to a swapped out battery.
The model Better Place uses is that you own he vehicle but lease the battery, so the warranty is not an issue for the consumer. It's similar to a cable receiver you get from the cable company. You pay a few dollar a month for each box and if they ever break down, they just swap it out for you.

kabalah70 said:
Most battery chemistries and deisgns today cannot take full advantage of the power that level 3 recharging can provide
The SAE J 1772 standard does not include level III charging yet, but they are getting closer. The Leaf for example, uses a proprietary interface for their Level III charging. Until the standard covers the higher amperage charging options, it will not really catch on. Also, since most homes can't handle the 200-500 AMPS required for a DC fast charge, they will be limited to public charging stations.

kabalah70 said:
This is a major advantage with the Tesla S as getting a new battery is very simple, no major disassembly to get to it.
This is a really good point. If Aston comes out with a super efficient V12 for their new generation of DBS cars, it is almost impossible (and prohibitively expensive) to upgrade an existing car with the new engine. Batteries are trivial to replace by comparison and allow very easy upgrades through the life of the car. The same goes with power generation. Each coal plant that is replaced with a cleaner option reduces the emissions of all the electric cars that are being charged from that plant without any change to the cars themselves.


[hr]


I think calling the MPG/MPGe standard "useless" is pretty harsh but I have lived in other countries where the standard used is fuel consumption (i.e, Litres or KWH /100 KM) and that feels more natural when discussing efficiency than MPG which is more a measure of range. But as was pointed out, as long as you are comparing vehicles and the number is calculated the same way for both, then you can just do a simple comparison without resorting to "quantum mechanics".

-- Fab
 
Fabulist: The only time you would really need Level 3 charging is for cross-country. It is what will make EVs able to compete with ICEs as a car for a family with a single car. Even if the nation had a complete Level 3 infrastructure now, it would not help because the battery chemistries currently available can not use it to its full potential because it would be too damaging. However, with cars like the Tesla, once the infrastructure exists, it will be easy to swap a battery that can use it.
 
kabalah70 said:
I live in Northern Alabama so my power is provided by TVA which has a large mix of nuke, solar, wind, hydroelectric, fossil fuel, and others. My house isn't built yet, so I have no electric bill to know what their current rate is, but it looks like it will be around $0.06 per KWh or $0.03 per mile on electric. Whereas, gas at $3.75 per gallon and a gas mpg of 250 miles range / 9.5 gallon tank = 26.3, gives a cost of $0.14 per mile. TVA's mix is:
TVA Generation Mix* (FY 2007)
Fossil 64%
Nuclear 30%
Hydro 6%
Other <1%
Small world. I'm right here in Huntsville too. :) Did you get a chance to drive one of the Karmas earlier this week? Did you ask them about the mpg specification change?
 
I am stuck here in Corpus Christi thanks to Uncle Sam, so I missed it, but my friend dropped my name when he visited the dealership and they let him test drive it.
 
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