have any of you run the numbers to see how much each charge will actually cost you? I posted another thread that really poses the question of how much does it cost (both money and CO2) to charge the car and use it vs simply utilizing gas to run the generator. In some states it would be better to use the FUEL than even charging it based on the downstream methods of producing the electricity (and the inherent loss associated with getting the electricity from power plant to your home or place of charge). so that begs the real question - are we really saving the planet by simply shifting the focus of the power production to a power plant that generates your electricity vs a gasoline engine producing it? Motor Trend says in many states it wouldn't.
see here -> http://fiskerbuzz.com/forums/Thread-Great-CO2-footprint-article-Leaf-vs-Volt
CO2 probably is a problem. CO2 is definitely not the only problem, and where I live, it is certainly not the biggest problem. The big problem here is car-sourced air pollution. Simply moving the power generation from the cars (which produce lots of smog-forming crap that gets into our lungs) to the coal-fired power plants (which produce very little smog-forming crap) is a huge, huge win.
It also means dollars spent on fueling vehicles go to coal-producing people here in the US, rather than petroleum-producing people in the middle east. So even if it does not necessarily help the environment, it definitely helps us.
@Dutch: I do have close to 4KW of solar panels on my house and typically generate between 10KWH and 24KWH a day, depending on weather and season. However, all of this happens during the day when my car is with me at work. So I just push the power into the grid and then take it out again at night when I need the power. Adding the Karma to the mix is not going to change this setup, except that I will be using 20KWH/day more electricity that I am using now.
@Dutch: I do have close to 4KW of solar panels on my house and typically generate between 10KWH and 24KWH a day, depending on weather and season. However, all of this happens during the day when my car is with me at work. So I just push the power into the grid and then take it out again at night when I need the power. Adding the Karma to the mix is not going to change this setup, except that I will be using 20KWH/day more electricity that I am using now.
Would it be possible to have an outlet on the Karma that went directly into the onboard inverter? It seems economical to go straight from the panel array. You may be able to use the same path as the solar roof eliminating the need for an additional external inverter.
@Dutch: Probably not. The output voltage of my solar array is fairly steady around 380V DC (the Amperage (current) varies with the amount of sunlight). I doubt that the built-in inverter can handle that kind of voltage. The SAE is working on adding high voltage DC charging to the J1772 standard, but at the moment, you can't use anything higher than 240V AC.
@Dutch: I do have close to 4KW of solar panels on my house and typically generate between 10KWH and 24KWH a day, depending on weather and season. However, all of this happens during the day when my car is with me at work. So I just push the power into the grid and then take it out again at night when I need the power. Adding the Karma to the mix is not going to change this setup, except that I will be using 20KWH/day more electricity that I am using now.
I installed 64 solar panels on the roof of my company and they deliver on average 30 KWh during the day. I charge my car there during the day, so I'll use solar power directly.
But I will also be charging at home during the night (I drive 100 miles every day) and even though I will install solar panels on my house next year, you are right in observing that they won't be generating power at the moment when the car needs it (at night). I don't consider that a problem, as I will deliver that energy to the grid, and at night I will take it back from the grid (I just look at it as temporary storage).
My energy company allows for my meter to run backwards, so there is no problem if the solar panels deliver more power than I need at a given moment. As long as I don't produce more in a whole year than I use in a whole year, I won't pay anything.
... I will also be charging at home during the night (I drive 100 miles every day) and even though I will install solar panels on my house next year, you are right in observing that they won't be generating power at the moment when the car needs it (at night). I don't consider that a problem, as I will deliver that energy to the grid, and at night I will take it back from the grid (I just look at as temporary storage).
I have no idea where you live, but in much of the country, electricity demand at night is about a third of what it is during the day. In these places, solar panels that supply power to "the grid" during the day, with an electric car that draws power from "the grid" at night, is pretty much an ideal set-up. Anything that has the effect of "leveling out" demand is highly desirable both from the point of view of the power generators (who make more money from smaller investments this way) and from that of the "save the planet" eco-types (who will observe greater overall system efficiency, and hence less pollution and so on, as a result of this change in usage patterns).
Eventually, of course, if everyone moved all of their loads to night-time and all of their power generation to day-time, we would have the opposite problem. But that "if" is like saying "if eventually we turned all our water into champagne". One, it's not going to happen, and two, the slight changes in that direction that we can achieve today are quite positive.
I live in Northern Alabama so my power is provided by TVA which has a large mix of nuke, solar, wind, hydroelectric, fossil fuel, and others. My house isn't built yet, so I have no electric bill to know what their current rate is, but it looks like it will be around $0.06 per KWh or $0.03 per mile on electric. Whereas, gas at $3.75 per gallon and a gas mpg of 250 miles range / 9.5 gallon tank = 26.3, gives a cost of $0.14 per mile. TVA's mix is:
TVA Generation Mix* (FY 2007)
Fossil 64%
Nuclear 30%
Hydro 6%
Other <1%
I am not sure of Tennessee's load profile but in general this implies that nighttime power is almost all nuclear. So if you charge your car at night, you are using atomic energy!
(Nuke plants try to run full bore 24/7 as much as possible, as the pile puts out heat regardless of whether you use it—which means your fuel costs are essentially identical whether you are putting out 0 watts or 1000 megawatts—and ramping up and down causes thermal stress, which requires more maintenance. In other words, the power plant costs $X billion to build, $N million a year to staff and maintain, and $0 per watt to produce power. Virtually all of the cost is for maintenance and principal-and-interest. As a result, on wholesale markets, nuke plants will occasionally actually pay the customer to take their electricity. I have seen prices of negative ten dollars per megawatt-hour in the California wholesale market.)
California's Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) gives customers the option of installing a separate meter for your EV and electing a Time-of-use rate for that meter to take advantage of lower nightly rates. (http://goo.gl/OwgJ5). This gives you the best price if you mostly charge your car during off-peak hours. The rate varies by season, but if you don't charge your car during the day, the most you will pay is $0.06/KWH or $1.20 for a full charge. You pay even less after midnight in the summer and off-peak in the winter. Assuming a 50-mile range for EV mode, that translates to $0.024/Mile. By comparison, my current car gets 30 MPG on $4/Gallon gas, or about $0.110/Mile. In California, the combination of cheap electricity and expensive gas makes the EV proposition viable. Of course, none of this really applies to the Fisker Karma since the $100K+ price wipes out any savings on fuel you experience in Stealth mode over the life of the car.
That explains why the car that was delivered to him had Manufacturer plates on it instead of the usual paper plates. Speaking of emissions, I am pretty bummed that the Karma is not going to qualify for the AT PZEV program so we cannot get the $2500 state rebate or drive alone in the HOV lane with a Fisker.
That explains why the car that was delivered to him had Manufacturer plates on it instead of the usual paper plates. Speaking of emissions, I am pretty bummed that the Karma is not going to qualify for the AT PZEV program so we cannot get the $2500 state rebate or drive alone in the HOV lane with a Fisker.
Actually no. The Fisker has the same problems as Volt in that the warranty on the battery is not long enough to qualify for the program (10YR, 150K miles). GM is going to solve the problem by offering an extended warranty option for people who want to get the tag to purchase. As far as I know, Fisker has no plans to qualify for the California program.
On that page it says the fuel economy through combined city/hwy average is 67mpg. That's a bit off from the "100mpg achievable" claim from earlier, but still good. Of course MPG numbers for a car like this are totally bunk since it completely depends on how far you drive/day and when you recharge.
MPGe is much maligned, but I haven't seen anything better for the general populace proposed. Americans have been using MPG as the basis for economy/efficiency/emissions comparisons for decades now. It makes sense to try to factor alternative fuel vehicles into that equation. Yes, it'll always be a flawed comparison, but it's the best we've got. Going the Volt route and just talking about gas fueled MPG doesn't work, either. Do you really want a standard that gives a Nissan Leaf infinite MPG? And, what do we do for CNG powered cars?
brian said:
...it doesn't take into account that the battery itself is a consumable item.
The battery in an EV is no more a consumable item than a timing belt in an ICE, or the oil, oil filter, spark plugs, air filter, gas filter, water pump belt, transmission fluid, lead-acid battery, etc., etc. Matter of fact, one could argue that while the timing belt has to be replaced or it'll break and leave you stranded, you can keep using the battery in your car, albeit with a smaller and smaller range.
Tesla is not going to be the best example in terms of costs, obviously, but Tesla owners have the option of purchasing a battery replacement guarantee for $12K. 100K miles for $12K is 12 cents/mile. Add in the 2 cents/mile of electricity costs (TOU nighttime charging in CA), and you're at 14 cents/mile. Add servicing costs into your Aston Martin's 22 cents/mile and the Tesla runs roughly half the cost per mile. Factor in an engine rebuild at 200K miles and the balance tips even more.
I agree with your statement that people don't buy EVs to save money (although it can make sense for Leaf owners who have a predictable commute and a second vehicle for road trips). EVs are cool, and I can't wait to see the Karma in person.
Americans have been using MPG as the basis for economy/efficiency/emissions comparisons for decades now. Do you really want a standard that gives a Nissan Leaf infinite MPG? And, what do we do for CNG powered cars?
Yes, the Leaf should get infinite MPG. It should also have a number on the sticker that indicates the Miles-Per-Charge and other relevant information for an EV. The MPGe is useless and requires knowledge of calculus and theoretical quantum physics to figure out. When buying an EV all I care about is how far it'll go on a charge. For PHEV's I only want to know two things: how far it will go on a charge, and what my MPG is after the battery dies
teslaowner said:
The battery in an EV is no more a consumable item than a timing belt in an ICE, or the oil, oil filter, spark plugs, air filter, gas filter, water pump belt, transmission fluid, lead-acid battery, etc.,
Yep, exactly, but the condition of a $3 spark plug isn't going to factor into resale value or be anything a buyer is going to ask about. A $30,000 battery will, however.
-Brian
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