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Fabulist said:
Other than the public reports of Nina pricing being around $50K, I have not heard any of that. It makes sense for Fisker to wait until there are a significant number of Karmas delivered to owners before they publicly commit to the next project. Also, assuming the Q-Drive works as advertised, it make sense to keep using it in the next couple of vehicles rather than start anew with a whole new configuration.

BTW, these are my own thoughts and I have no insight into what Fisker is thinking or doing any more than anyone else outside the company, so feel free to accept or reject my musings as you wish.

-- Fab
...and how does the Nina look???
 

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@SoCalGuy: Unfortunately, I cannot say anything about Nina's detailed design due to confidentiality agreements. You will just have to wait unti it is unveiled. Sorry.

--Fab.
 

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Fabulist said:
@SoCalGuy: Unfortunately, I cannot say anything about Nina's detailed design due to confidentiality agreements. You will just have to wait unti it is unveiled. Sorry.

--Fab.
I have heard very little about the Nina... any idea when the design (or more information) will be unveiled?
 

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magnus said:
I have heard very little about the Nina... any idea when the design (or more information) will be unveiled?
I have not heard anything about Nina's unveiling date. Maybe Mr. Harris could shed some light on this.

--Fab
 

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Thought it was worth resurrecting this thread. I got a chance to ride in the Model S Beta at the Tesla factory tour event some weeks ago. I was fairly impressed. I put together some photo comparisons which I think are relevant here. I think the Karma wins on style and luxury, but the Model S wins on functionality and performance. Is there an updated spec sheet available for the Karma?



(2012 Fisker Karma Front Three Quarter On Track Photo 24)

(Tesla Model S Beta test ride | Flickr - Photo Sharing!)


Dash:

(2012 Fisker Karma Interior Photo 7)

(Norbert - Photos from Sunday, October 2, 2011 (Model S event))


Back seats:

(2012 Fisker Karma Rear Seats Photo 31)

(Norbert - Photos from Sunday, October 2, 2011 (Model S event))


Under the hood:

(http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1108_fisker_karma_second_drive/photo_11.html)

(Photos from Sunday, October 2, 2011 (Model S event))


Trunk:

(Fisker Karma Trunk | Flickr - Photo Sharing!)

(First Ride: 2012 Tesla Model S Beta Photo Gallery - Autoblog)
 

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I read that the Gas mpg for the Karma is 20...and I believe that is combined City/Hwy. Does anyone know the breakdown the EPA gives for Gas City and more importantly Gas mpg for Hwy? I will mostly use elec. mode in town so the Gas Hwy mpg would be more meaningful for long trips when elec. is not convenient always.
 

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The Karma is definitely better looking, although I don't dislike the external look of the Model S. Just hope it will stick out enough between the likes of Lexus and Infiniti.

Big plus: it has more space for passengers in the back and it has the baggage space, back and front, that the Karma lacks.

But I was terrified two weeks ago when I saw the new dashboard. Last year it still had a nice dashboard, with brown leather and beautiful stitches. Now they have turned it into something minimalistic that you would find in a seventies minivan. The shiny wood belongs in an old Jag, not an EV. And the big control center - the size and functionality of which is great - doesn't fit well in the dashboard, especially in a front view. It looks awkward.

The back seats, although with plenty of leg room, look inadequate with not much lateral support.

Price is a plus again for the Model S, and so is the better performance. It is also more eco friendly, as it will never burn fossil fuels. But range anxiety could be a problem, especially with the smaller battery packs.

The Model S has a lot going for it, but I'd still pick the Karma over it, although a few days ago, when it looked as if we in Europe were looking at another delay of a few months, that preference caved for a moment.
 

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The Nina makes the Model-S look like a practical joke. Seriously, I've seen it.. and WOW! Can't say anything beyond that, but the Model-S has nothing on the Nina. But then again, this is Fisker we're talking about, so we probably won't see it for 4 years, and when we do it'll won't live up to expectations :(

-Brian
 

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My ideal car would be a Fisker Karma with a Tesla S drive train ("Fiskla"?) The fact is that I will be using the Karma as a daily commuter and occasionally to drive to nearby locations for meetings, etc. and the range extending engine is going to be mostly dead weight for my purposes. But Tesla's styling just does not do it for me, so I will be sticking with the Karma for now.

-- Fab.[hr]
brian said:
The Nina makes the Model-S look like a practical joke. Seriously, I've seen it.. and WOW! Can't say anything beyond that, but the Model-S has nothing on the Nina. But then again, this is Fisker we're talking about, so we probably won't see it for 4 years, and when we do it'll won't live up to expectations :(
I agree that the Nina is much better looking than the Model S. I would hope that since they will be using the Karma drive train in the Nina, and that the Nina is smaller and (hopefully) lighter than the Karma, it would actually perform better. But as you said, this is Fisker and all bets are off until we see the final product.

-- Fab.
 

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I agree the Project Nina car is more beautiful than the Tesla S (I saw the first iteration Nina back in Delaware).

I will also say the Tesla S is a very good looking car (of course, there is still some Fisker DNA in its design from way back in time).

The core difference, to state the obvious, is that the Tesla is an all EV, and therefore at some point I do have to worry about range (whether it be 160, 240, 300 ++). At some point, if I take it on a long trip, I have to plug it in, and that will require a wait. I still prefer the EV with extended range, so I don't have to worry about it. It seems many EV drivers will have a different car for long trips (the family SUV). So now they are stuck in the position of driving their gasoline hog on their longest trips. A bit counter-productive.

Someday when there are over 100,000 charging stations in the U.S (similar to the number of gas stations), and they can charge my car in 5 minutes (similar to filling my tank), then the PHev will be less necessary. My view is that the PHEV will evolve over time such that the EV part grows (better batteries, more efficiencies) and the recharger shrinks (3, 2, or 1 cylinder ICE, maybe a diesel, maybe a CNG engine, or the unlikely nat-gas reformer and fuel cell?)

Finally, I don't think it is an either / or question in the aggregate. There is room in the market for Fisker, Tesla, Nissan, GM, Toyota, BMW, Mini, etc. In the end, we all buy cars based on design, perceived value, comfort, quality, performance, etc. Just as you can buy any number of V8 cars today from Caddy, BMW, AUdi, MBZ, Lincoln, Chevy, etc., they all compete in the marketplace and find their target market. Fisker and Tesla will both do that, and I am cheering them all on as we head into the future of EVs.
 

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Dutch said:
But I was terrified two weeks ago when I saw the new dashboard. Last year it still had a nice dashboard, with brown leather and beautiful stitches. Now they have turned it into something minimalistic that you would find in a seventies minivan. The shiny wood belongs in an old Jag, not an EV. And the big control center - the size and functionality of which is great - doesn't fit well in the dashboard, especially in a front view. It looks awkward.
I 100% agree.

Brian, are we talking looks or specs on the Nina? I don't think there's any doubt fisker can deliver on design... It's everything else...
 

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brian said:
The Nina makes the Model-S look like a practical joke. Seriously, I've seen it.. and WOW!
Well, now I'm interested to see the Nina. When are they supposed to show it?

Fabulist said:
My ideal car would be a Fisker Karma with a Tesla S drive train ("Fiskla"?)
We can wonder about what might have been had things between Elon and Henrik worked out.

Fabulist said:
I agree that the Nina is much better looking than the Model S. I would hope that since they will be using the Karma drive train in the Nina, and that the Nina is smaller and (hopefully) lighter than the Karma, it would actually perform better.
Actually I had heard that the Nina is supposed to have a re-engineered drivetrain (including that BMW engine). Then new Karmas will eventually have the Nina drivetrain.

Dave_Car_Guy said:
I will also say the Tesla S is a very good looking car (of course, there is still some Fisker DNA in its design from way back in time).
Given how that business relationship ended, I find it highly unlikely that any Fisker design work remains in the Model S. The Model S (Whitestar) was supposed to be a PHEV back then too. While work on the pure EV drivetrain continued, Franz von Holzhausen was hired and given a "clean sheet" above the axles.
 

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With the egos of Elon and Henrik, there's no way they could have worked together. Frankly, I'm glad Elon won out and provided the direction and vision for Tesla. He pointed the way, like Kennedy and the moon, and threw out anybody who wasn't pushing in the same direction.
 

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doug said:
The Model S (Whitestar) was supposed to be a PHEV back then too. While work on the pure EV drivetrain continued, Franz von Holzhausen was hired and given a "clean sheet" above the axles.
Actually, the Whitestar was definitely not a PHEV. Tesla was convinced of the superiority of the all-EV mode and throughout 2007 they were designing the Whitestar as pure EV. Henrik believed in the PHEV mode, but was hired to design the Whitestar as a full EV. He began his own Karma PHEV design in the summer of 2007, and designed and built the first show car in the Fall of 2007. It was Feb 1, 2008...two weeks AFTER Fisker showed the first Karma at the Detroit Auto Show in January, that Tesla suddenly announced that they would offer both the pure EV Whitestar/Model S and also offer a range-extended vehicle (REV) version. Clearly, they were trying to offset the attention Fisker was getting, or maybe stay ahead in consumer's minds, or maybe they had thought they could do both. In any case, they reversed course on September 17, 2008 and said that the PHEV model required too many battery charge cycles and they wanted to "stick to their knitting" in pure EVs.
 

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Dave_Car_Guy said:
doug said:
The Model S (Whitestar) was supposed to be a PHEV back then too. While work on the pure EV drivetrain continued, Franz von Holzhausen was hired and given a "clean sheet" above the axles.
Actually, the Whitestar was definitely not a PHEV. Tesla was convinced of the superiority of the all-EV mode and throughout 2007 they were designing the Whitestar as pure EV. Henrik believed in the PHEV mode, but was hired to design the Whitestar as a full EV. He began his own Karma PHEV design in the summer of 2007, and designed and built the first show car in the Fall of 2007. It was Feb 1, 2008...two weeks AFTER Fisker showed the first Karma at the Detroit Auto Show in January, that Tesla suddenly announced that they would offer both the pure EV Whitestar/Model S and also offer a range-extended vehicle (REV) version. Clearly, they were trying to offset the attention Fisker was getting, or maybe stay ahead in consumer's minds, or maybe they had thought they could do both. In any case, they reversed course on September 17, 2008 and said that the PHEV model required too many battery charge cycles and they wanted to "stick to their knitting" in pure EVs.
Not quite. Martin Eberhard had floated the idea in at least one of the blogs back then by praising the concept of the Volt and encouraging the "range extended EV" label for PHEVs. (Something that irked the EV purists.) Tesla didn't think they could get the cost down and still have an acceptable range.

Here's an article from Dec 2007 that hints about it:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9830222-54.html
Tesla Motors helped bring the concept of the all-electric vehicle back from the dead, but it appears they also have gas on their minds.

Speaking at the ThinkGreen conference in San Francisco, vice president of finance Mike Taylor told an audience that the GM Volt is "a really good way" of extending the range on electric sedans in a cost-effective way.
Anyhow I didn't mean to imply anything related to that Tesla-Fisker lawsuit if that's what you're driving at.
 
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