[Soflauthor]

http://www.tesla-buzz.com/forums/

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Today is the 3-year anniversary of my down payment to Fisker and altho delivery is getting closer (I hope), they've let me wait so long that other options are presenting themselves.

Although I have a production slot for the Karma, I'm frustrated by the company's continuing delays, price increases, lack of meaningful customer communication, and lack of any intent to provide financial incentives for those of us with down payments who have waited for years for the Karma. I'm also concerned that lack of attention to these details (start-up or no) is a troubling sign going forward.

I've begun to research the Tesla Model S and find it a reasonably impressive car. I know it's a different animal, true EV, but with a 300 mile range, it becomes very attractive for my driving habits. It's touted as faster than the Karma, has a design that isn't quite as sexy, but is quite beautiful, is less expensive, and is "scheduled" for release only 10 or 11 months after the current delivery date (who knows what the real date will be) for my Karma. Because Tesla is an established company, it's probably more likely that they'll deliver in 2012 as they project. After a three year wait, what's another 12 months?

I'd be curious if anyone else has researched the Model S and what your opinions, pro or con, are.

I haven't pulled the trigger on this as yet, but I'm starting to lean toward Tesla. Everyone should have these problems

 

[Fabulist]

I would take any sort of release date with a huge amount of NaCl. As I recall, Tesla didn't exactly hit their targets either even though they started with an existing car shell. The Tesla Model S is a whole new design for Tesla so it is hard to tell how much they can leverage off their experience with the roadster. Also, and this is subjective, but the Tesla Model S looks to my eye like a 3-Series BMW, nowhere near as impressive as the Fisker. But it's good to keep your options open and consider alternatives. I am sticking with Fisker at this point, at least until I have had a chance to test drive the car during the road show.

 

[Dutch]

The Tesls Model S is set for release mid-2012, so 1 year from now. Make that fall 2012 with the delays that are bound to occur. There are already 4500 reservations in place, that is probably the complete production of year 1 (they are saying they will produce 5000 in 2012, do you believe that?). So you are looking at earliest delivery mid-2013, 2 years from now. If you switch you are probably setting yourself for another long, disappoiting wait. Groundhog Day comes to mind.

The Model is faster (compared to the Karma's Stealth-mode) and cheaper, those are strong points. The design is a personal choice. But real range will more likely be 220-250 than 300 miles (if the real range of the Leaf is any indication). Which means the maximum round trip without overnight stay will get you to a spot 120 miles away, and that is stretching (sweating) it. Something to consider if you don't have a second car. My brother has pre-ordered one, but he never goes further than 70-80 miles.

 

[Soflauthor]

Fabulist & Dutch,

Thx for the comments. Luckily, the Tesla Model S tour is scheduled to stop in Miami in early August, so I'll get to see the alpha version of the car in person at just about the same time that I'm scheduled to test drive the Karma at my Fisker dealership. That will probably be the decision point for me.

I agree with everything you've said, including the uncertainly of delivery from Tesla (a major question mark and risk). The last thing I want to do is relive the car delivery delays all over again.

SoFla

 

[kabalah70]

I put a deposit down on a Model S when they first became available, #95 in the normal production sequence, that is after all the Roadster prefences and Signature Edition productions. Keep in mind that the $49k after rebate price range is for the 160 mile base model. For the 230 mile and 300 mile ranges tack on an extra 10 and 20 k respectively. Once again, that is probably for base models of those too. I am sure they will do the paint job and interior pricing options just like Fisker did to up the final price.

 

[kabalah70]

I put a deposit down on a Model S when they first became available, #95 in the normal production sequence, that is after all the Roadster prefences and Signature Edition productions. Keep in mind that the $49k after rebate price range is for the 160 mile base model. For the 230 mile and 300 mile ranges tack on an extra 10 and 20 k respectively. Once again, that is probably for base models of those too. I am sure they will do the paint job and interior pricing options just like Fisker did to up the final price.[hr]
Curious to see what the Model S will get, but here is the Roadster's EPA sticker. Where is the Karma's?

http://www.frontsidebus.net/2011/05/26/tesla-roadster-2-5-gets-119-mpge-rating-from-epa-still-as-expensive-as-ever/[hr]
Curious to see what the Model S will get, but here is the Roadster's EPA sticker. Where is the Karma's?

http://www.frontsidebus.net/2011/05/26/tesla-roadster-2-5-gets-119-mpge-rating-from-epa-still-as-expensive-as-ever/

 

[ct-fiskerbuzz]

Also, and this is subjective, but the Tesla Model S looks to my eye like a 3-Series BMW, nowhere near as impressive as the Fisker.

Tesla recently updated the look of the Model S, and I think the changes are improvements. Nonetheless, the Karma has it all over the Model S. (In terms of looks I mean.)

Ultimately the question (of "Karma vs Model S"), at least for me, boils down to these three items:

1. Am I willing to wait an extra year-plus for the S?
2. Do I want to save some bucks up front?
3. Do I want electric-only?

The first is an obvious disavantage (to the Model S), the second an obvious advantage, and the third cuts both ways.

There's also more space (for passengers and cargo) in the Model S, but I don't yet know how much more.

 

[Fabulist]

Ultimately the question (of "Karma vs Model S"), at least for me, boils down to these three items:

1. Am I willing to wait an extra year-plus for the S?
2. Do I want to save some bucks up front?
3. Do I want electric-only?

The first is an obvious disavantage (to the Model S), the second an obvious advantage, and the third cuts both ways.

There's also more space (for passengers and cargo) in the Model S, but I don't yet know how much more.

Since none of us has had an opportunity to do a proper test drive of either car, there simply is no data to base a decision on, IMHO. We just have to wait and drive both cars to see what's what.

-- Fab

 

[brian]

Well, for me the Tesla isn't an option because they don't have any dealerships in Texas nor any within a zillion miles of here. I much prefer Fisker's business strategy of opening up as many dealerships via existing dealership networks as possible. Tesla's strategy of owning all of their own stores is a horrible one. It costs too much money for them to operate their own stores that only sell their cars. Fisker is doing it right by going with dealerships that already sell other brands. Offsets most of the operating cost.

-BRian

 

[vfx]

Had a down payment on the Karma and have asked for my $ back. We were around # 50. As much as it's gorgeous it's been too long to wait, too many price hikes and disappointed in how crowded it is inside -both front and in the back and now that we heard it driving it is really noisy.

....

There's also more space (for passengers and cargo) in the Model S, but I don't yet know how much more.

The Model S has massive amounts of room since batteries are a floorpan and motor is between the back wheels. Tesla is talking interior space in front and back adding up to a minivan interior equivalent.

Still think the Sunset is sexy though!

 

[herbvdh]

I was promised a test drive by my dealer in November 2009 and am still waiting to drive and make the final decision. I have several negatives now 1) Price increase. 2) Twenty months no communications. I have waited to long for this. I have given up on Fisker and will go for a Tesla Model S or X.

 

[Dutch]

Hello Herb, maybe the Fisker Nina is another option for you. The price will be comparable to that of the Model S (the smaller battery-versions), it will be gorgeous (according to the people who have already seen it), it will have no range anxiety and it will be available around the same time when Tesla will have delivered to all current deposit holders, about 1,5 to 2 years from now.

 

[Fabulist]

Hello Herb, maybe the Fisker Nina is another option for you. The price will be comparable to that of the Model S (the smaller battery-versions), it will be gorgeous (according to the people who have already seen it), it will have no range anxiety and it will be available around the same time when Tesla will have delivered to all current deposit holders, about 1,5 to 2 years from now.

Good point. The Nina is definitely better looking than the Tesla S. Or if you are really adventurous, you could wait for the Sunset.

 

[SoCalGuy]

How do you know the Nina will be better looking than the Model S?

Hello Herb, maybe the Fisker Nina is another option for you. The price will be comparable to that of the Model S (the smaller battery-versions), it will be gorgeous (according to the people who have already seen it), it will have no range anxiety and it will be available around the same time when Tesla will have delivered to all current deposit holders, about 1,5 to 2 years from now.

Good point. The Nina is definitely better looking than the Tesla S. Or if you are really adventurous, you could wait for the Sunset.

How do you know the Nina will be better looking than the Model S?

 

[Fabulist]

How do you know the Nina will be better looking than the Model S?

I have seen the Nina in person at a showing to investors back in April. Compared to the photos of the Model S, there is no contest, IMHO.

--Fab.

 

[SoCalGuy]

How do you know the Nina will be better looking than the Model S?

I have seen the Nina in person at a showing to investors back in April. Compared to the photos of the Model S, there is no contest, IMHO.

--Fab.

Ah, luck you!!! How would you compare the Karma to the Nina? I heard that some investors/management were worried that releasing the Nina too early would cannabilize Karma sales.

 

[Fabulist]

I heard that some investors/management were worried that releasing the Nina too early would cannabilize Karma sales.

Fisker releasing anything too early Is not at the top of my concerns list at the moment. :-/ But is BMW cannibalizing the 7XX cars by selling 3XX cars? Probably not. Auto manufacturers sell cars at different price points with different features that appeal to different people.

-- Fab

 

[Soflauthor]

I heard that some investors/management were worried that releasing the Nina too early would cannabilize Karma sales.

Fisker releasing anything too early Is not at the top of my concerns list at the moment. :-/

IMO, there is no chance that Fisker will be ""early" with the Nina. First, they have to design and then outfit a complete factory. No small task. Next, they must hire production staff and train them. Then, they have to debug production processes, deal with myriad regulatory issues inside the US, establish overall logistics, define a supplier chain, etc., etc.

Fisker will not release the Nina in 2012, and based on their performance with the Karma (using an existing production facility that was proven and running), little chance the car will be available in 2013. Right now, any date that Fisker announces should be met with serious skepticism until the company proves otherwise.

SoFla

Fisker deposit: June 10, 2008 (#737). On order: Ecosport - Shadow exterior – Canyon Tritone interior (delivery ~ October 1, 2011)

 

[SoCalGuy]

I heard that some investors/management were worried that releasing the Nina too early would cannabilize Karma sales.

Fisker releasing anything too early Is not at the top of my concerns list at the moment. :-/

IMO, there is no chance that Fisker will be ""early" with the Nina. First, they have to design and then outfit a complete factory. No small task. Next, they must hire production staff and train them. Then, they have to debug production processes, deal with myriad regulatory issues inside the US, establish overall logistics, define a supplier chain, etc., etc.

Fisker will not release the Nina in 2012, and based on their performance with the Karma (using an existing production facility that was proven and running), little chance the car will be available in 2013. Right now, any date that Fisker announces should be met with serious skepticism until the company proves otherwise.

SoFla

Fisker deposit: June 10, 2008 (#737). On order: Ecosport - Shadow exterior – Canyon Tritone interior (delivery ~ October 1, 2011)

Totally hear both of you on that front. All I'm saying is that what I've heard is that since the car will be 1/2 the cost of the Karma and an equally stunning design, some may opt to save their cash and wait until the Nina comes out in 2-3 years. By then, all the Q-drive kinks will have been worked out and who knows, instead of using a 2.0L EcoTec as range extender (i.e. inefficient repurposed engine), new, dedicated range extender units that are more efficient and compact might already have been designed and put into use.

I've heard that Fisker originally planned to unveil their mockup of the Nina in September of this year at one of the auto shows, but has since delayed that to early 2012 (again, in an effort to ward off the cannabilization effect). Have you guys heard anything?

Also, Fab, please let us know more about the design!!!

 

[Fabulist]

Other than the public reports of Nina pricing being around $50K, I have not heard any of that. It makes sense for Fisker to wait until there are a significant number of Karmas delivered to owners before they publicly commit to the next project. Also, assuming the Q-Drive works as advertised, it make sense to keep using it in the next couple of vehicles rather than start anew with a whole new configuration.

BTW, these are my own thoughts and I have no insight into what Fisker is thinking or doing any more than anyone else outside the company, so feel free to accept or reject my musings as you wish.

-- Fab