Fisker Atlantic may not be built in Delaware

LonePalmBJ

· #2 · Apr 4, 2012

dennis said:
"We're proceeding where the best cost will be. We're looking for alternative options to the U.S., of course."

Translation: A significant Chinese investment may include a requirement to build the vehicles in China.

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Sparky168

· #3 · Apr 4, 2012

LonePalmBJ said:
dennis said:

"We're proceeding where the best cost will be. We're looking for alternative options to the U.S., of course."

Click to expand...

Translation: A significant Chinese investment may include a requirement to build the vehicles in China.

Can Fisker lauch the build of Atlantic with the as-is funding in Valmet, Finland? As-is funding is definitely not sufficient for Delaware.

Actually not a bad sequence. Built in Finland first, establish volume, make money, then fund the Delaware.
If the as-is money is enough, Fisker might even be able to pull up the Atlantic schedule to end of this year. Sorry Elon.

Last Nina was delayed because of the Delaware.

Picking a new production location (in China) over a proven, hardened and experienced car assembler (in Finland) is risky. Atlantic needs to be launched fairly flawless by using all the experience gained from the Karma.

Current market are Europe and NA. The GCC and China market are not yet broken in until the end of this year. Building Atlantic in China is half way around the world from here.

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Jimmy Biggs

· #4 · Apr 4, 2012

Sparky168 said:
LonePalmBJ said:

dennis said:

"We're proceeding where the best cost will be. We're looking for alternative options to the U.S., of course."

Click to expand...

Translation: A significant Chinese investment may include a requirement to build the vehicles in China.

Click to expand...

Can Fisker lauch the build of Atlantic with the as-is funding in Valmet, Finland? As-is funding is definitely not sufficient for Delaware.

Actually not a bad sequence. Built in Finland first, establish volume, make money, then fund the Delaware.
If the as-is money is enough, Fisker might even be able to pull up the Atlantic schedule to end of this year. Sorry Elon. Last Nina was delayed because of the Delaware.

Picking a new production location (in China) over a proven, hardened and experienced car assembler (in Finland) is risky. Atlantic needs to be launched fairly flawless by using all the experience gained from the Karma.

Current market are Europe and NA. The GCC and China market are not yet broken in until the end of this year. Building Atlantic in China is half way around the world from here.

I live in Delaware and drive by the Boxwood Plant a few times a day. Fisker was NEVER going to build anything here in Delaware. They striped out all the production equipment and sold it for scrap. Even the politicians knew it wasn't going to get built here and publicly state it was a Biden campaign "Kick Back" ..........
And that was Democrat Politicians

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dennis

Discussion Starter · #5 · Apr 4, 2012

Jimmy Biggs said:
I live in Delaware and drive by the Boxwood Plant a few times a day. Fisker was NEVER going to build anything here in Delaware. They striped out all the production equipment and sold it for scrap. Even the politicians knew it wasn't going to get built here and publicly state it was a Biden campaign "Kick Back" ..........
And that was Democrat Politicians

A startup company wouldn't spend $20M of their scarce capital to buy a factory they didn't intend to use. Especially when $300M+ of loan capital was dependent on using that factory. But they might sell off equipment that was obsolete for modern assembly techniques.

I hope Fisker finds another source of capital that allows them to pay off the $193M DOE loan so all of the politicians, Democratic and Republican, can just shut the f up.

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Jimmy Biggs

· #6 · Apr 4, 2012

dennis said:
Jimmy Biggs said:

I live in Delaware and drive by the Boxwood Plant a few times a day. Fisker was NEVER going to build anything here in Delaware. They striped out all the production equipment and sold it for scrap. Even the politicians knew it wasn't going to get built here and publicly state it was a Biden campaign "Kick Back" ..........
And that was Democrat Politicians

Click to expand...

A startup company wouldn't spend $20M of their scarce capital to buy a factory they didn't intend to use. Especially when $300M+ of loan capital was dependent on using that factory. But they might sell off equipment that was obsolete for modern assembly techniques.

I hope Fisker finds another source of capital that allows them to pay off the $193M DOE loan so all of the politicians, Democratic and Republican, can just shut the f up.

I've been in the car business since 1972 and TV for twenty years. I know all the politicians all the way up to Biden. Everybody knows the truth of the deal here. Hence why Mr Fisker himself lied about giving TV interviews/plant tours with updates of the "Nina". ABC was on it until the OBAMA Administration shut them up. Every politician in Delaware knows the truth and openly laugh about it ............ So sad but true.

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Nimisys

· #7 · Apr 4, 2012

Picking a new production location (in China) over a proven, hardened and experienced car assembler (in Finland) is risky. Atlantic needs to be launched fairly flawless by using all the experience gained from the Karma.

Valmet's production quality has been a concern, there have been a number off issues that directly relate back to them

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Sparky168

· #8 · Apr 4, 2012

Nimisys said:
Picking a new production location (in China) over a proven, hardened and experienced car assembler (in Finland) is risky. Atlantic needs to be launched fairly flawless by using all the experience gained from the Karma.

Click to expand...

Valmet's production quality has been a concern, there have been a number off issues that directly relate back to them

Have they mend their way and improved?

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SoCalGuy

· #9 · Apr 4, 2012

With $300M cash on hand (post this last raise) and another $100-120M or so likely to be raised in April/May (based on public comments and their SEC filings), Fisker will be more than cashed up to continue operating for a very long while (LaSorda's 2012 target for Karma sales is 4,000 units, they sold 250 in March alone and sales should accelerate once the negative press is behind them). That should give would-be Karma buyers some comfort.

Further, it should also give them some more leverage with DOE and others on the location for building the Atlantic. Personally, I think it would be great if they could build it at NUMMI in California, location of the Tesla Factory. Tesla is only using 10% of the space at NUMMI (its a 370-acre facility near Silicon Valley, with a test track and everything, courtesy of GM/Toyota). I think it is in Tesla's interest for Fisker to succeed, to broaden awareness and adoption of gas alternative vehicles. And there's something personally satisfying of having the two leading the EV revolution beind headquartered, designed, engineered AND built in California.

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Jimmy Biggs

· #10 · Apr 4, 2012

SoCalGuy said:
With $300M cash on hand (post this last raise) and another $100-120M or so likely to be raised in April/May (based on public comments and their SEC filings), Fisker will be more than cashed up to continue operating for a very long while (LaSorda's 2012 target for Karma sales is 4,000 units, they sold 250 in March alone and sales should accelerate once the negative press is behind them). That should give would-be Karma buyers some comfort.

Further, it should also give them some more leverage with DOE and others on the location for building the Atlantic. Personally, I think it would be great if they could build it at NUMMI in California, location of the Tesla Factory. Tesla is only using 10% of the space at NUMMI (its a 370-acre facility near Silicon Valley, with a test track and everything, courtesy of GM/Toyota). I think it is in Tesla's interest for Fisker to succeed, to broaden awareness and adoption of gas alternative vehicles. And there's something personally satisfying of having the two leading the EV revolution beind headquartered, designed, engineered AND built in California.

Labor cost is to high in SoCal

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SoCalGuy

· #11 · Apr 4, 2012

Jimmy Biggs said:
Labor cost is to high in SoCal

Tesla is doing it.

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Jimmy Biggs

· #12 · Apr 4, 2012

SoCalGuy said:
Jimmy Biggs said:

Labor cost is to high in SoCal

Click to expand...

Tesla is doing it.

Lets see them do it without loans and grants

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doug

· #13 · Apr 4, 2012

Jimmy Biggs said:
SoCalGuy said:

Jimmy Biggs said:

Labor cost is to high in SoCal

Click to expand...

Tesla is doing it.

Click to expand...

Lets see them do it without loans and grants

Yeah, Tesla was originally supposed build in New Mexico. But then they were heavily courted (by the then Governator) to stay in California. Then they were going to build in San Jose, CA, but then the terms of the DOE loans were published and they were required to use an existing building. Then they were supposed to use one of two locations in SoCal. But the GM bankruptcy and an investment from Toyota allowed them to get the former NUMMI plant (back up in Norther CA).

All the change of plans caused about two years of delay, but it was a real stoke of luck on the timing. Actually Fisker really lucked out to be able to pick up that Delaware plant so cheaply too. A silver lining to the economic downturn.

[hr]

SoCalGuy said:
Personally, I think it would be great if they could build it at NUMMI in California, location of the Tesla Factory. Tesla is only using 10% of the space at NUMMI (its a 370-acre facility near Silicon Valley, with a test track and everything, courtesy of GM/Toyota). I think it is in Tesla's interest for Fisker to succeed, to broaden awareness and adoption of gas alternative vehicles. And there's something personally satisfying of having the two leading the EV revolution beind headquartered, designed, engineered AND built in California.

I agree that it's in Tesla's interest for Fisker to succeed. I've been to the Tesla Factory (formerly NUMMI) in Fremont and it is amazing. So huge and Tesla is only using a small fraction of it. But given the history of these two men, I kind of doubt either of them want to have their companies working under the same roof.

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Dutch

· #14 · Apr 4, 2012

Jimmy Biggs said:
SoCalGuy said:

Jimmy Biggs said:

Labor cost is to high in SoCal

Click to expand...

Tesla is doing it.

Click to expand...

Lets see them do it without loans and grants

I haven't seen one positive remark in your 17 posts.

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matrix

· #15 · Apr 4, 2012

dennis said:
I hope Fisker finds another source of capital that allows them to pay off the $193M DOE loan so all of the politicians, Democratic and Republican, can just shut the f up.

I agree, well said Dennis! :thumbup:

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svp6

· #16 · Apr 4, 2012

Jimmy Biggs said:
SoCalGuy said:

Jimmy Biggs said:

Labor cost is to high in SoCal

Click to expand...

Tesla is doing it.

Click to expand...

Lets see them do it without loans and grants

What's wrong with loans and grants? I'd rather have my tax money go to innovative american companies than being forced in the end to buy cheap but poor quality products from a third world country. I am critical about Fisker quality issues, but I sure wish they succeed. Best if they do it in US with US support.

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Fabulist

· #17 · Apr 4, 2012

Jimmy Biggs said:
dennis said:

Jimmy Biggs said:

I live in Delaware and drive by the Boxwood Plant a few times a day. Fisker was NEVER going to build anything here in Delaware. They striped out all the production equipment and sold it for scrap. Even the politicians knew it wasn't going to get built here and publicly state it was a Biden campaign "Kick Back" ..........
And that was Democrat Politicians

Click to expand...

A startup company wouldn't spend $20M of their scarce capital to buy a factory they didn't intend to use. Especially when $300M+ of loan capital was dependent on using that factory. But they might sell off equipment that was obsolete for modern assembly techniques.

I hope Fisker finds another source of capital that allows them to pay off the $193M DOE loan so all of the politicians, Democratic and Republican, can just shut the f up.

Click to expand...

I've been in the car business since 1972 and TV for twenty years. I know all the politicians all the way up to Biden. Everybody knows the truth of the deal here. Hence why Mr Fisker himself lied about giving TV interviews/plant tours with updates of the "Nina". ABC was on it until the OBAMA Administration shut them up. Every politician in Delaware knows the truth and openly laugh about it ............ So sad but true.

Whenever I hear someone saying "I have been in the X business for [large number] of years, ..." to support their argument, my BS detector starts going off because I know what follows is nothing more than conjecture. So, with all respect, I am having a hard time hearing you over my blaring BS detector siren at the moment.

Here are some facts: If the scrap was worth real money, GM would not have simply walked away from the plant and would have sold it to recoup some of their $200M+ investment in that factory. Fisker had to raise capital and spend far more than the value of the scrap metal on the plant to get it ready for producing the Nina, not what it was designed for, which was pickup trucks (IIRC). The parts of the plant that they could use to make cars, for example the paint shop, was actually not scrapped and were kept in working order to be used when they started building cars there.

[hr]

Jimmy Biggs said:
SoCalGuy said:

Jimmy Biggs said:

Labor cost is to high in SoCal

Click to expand...

Tesla is doing it.

Click to expand...

Lets see them do it without loans and grants

First, there are no grants. All Fisker has received so far are loans that they have to pay with interest back to the US Treasury. The people who get straight handouts are oil companies. Second, there are a number of banks who are more than willing to extend credit to Fisker and ultimately, that may happen. So rather than trying to make up some of the Solyndra losses by making a good investment, the DOE is going to walk away from something that actually has a chance.

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SoCalGuy

· #18 · Apr 4, 2012

Let's not all forget about $60B in bailout - yes BILLION - that went to GM (aka Government Motors) and Chrysler. Think of what alternative fuel vehicles could have been developed with that cash! Given Fisker developed the Karma with a total capital spend of just $700-800M and Tesla has raised a total of $1.2B to develop three vehicles ($350M in VC, $400M in public equity and the balance in the DOE loan). I'd much rather have invested $60B creating 10-20 brand new American car companies than saving two legacied, mismanaged and challenged Detroit car companies.

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Fabulist

· #19 · Apr 4, 2012

SoCalGuy said:
Let's not all forget about $60B in bailout - yes BILLION - that went to GM (aka Government Motors) and Chrysler. Think of what alternative fuel vehicles could have been developed with that cash! Given Fisker developed the Karma with a total capital spend of just $700-800M and Tesla has raised a total of $1.2B to develop three vehicles ($350M in VC, $400M in public equity and the balance in the DOE loan). I'd much rather have invested $60B creating 10-20 brand new American car companies than saving two legacied, mismanaged and challenged Detroit car companies.

Well said.

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ixtractm

· #20 · Apr 4, 2012

Sparky168 said:
LonePalmBJ said:

dennis said:

"We're proceeding where the best cost will be. We're looking for alternative options to the U.S., of course."

Click to expand...

Translation: A significant Chinese investment may include a requirement to build the vehicles in China.

Click to expand...

Can Fisker lauch the build of Atlantic with the as-is funding in Valmet, Finland? As-is funding is definitely not sufficient for Delaware.

Actually not a bad sequence. Built in Finland first, establish volume, make money, then fund the Delaware.
If the as-is money is enough, Fisker might even be able to pull up the Atlantic schedule to end of this year. Sorry Elon. Last Nina was delayed because of the Delaware.

Picking a new production location (in China) over a proven, hardened and experienced car assembler (in Finland) is risky. Atlantic needs to be launched fairly flawless by using all the experience gained from the Karma.

Current market are Europe and NA. The GCC and China market are not yet broken in until the end of this year. Building Atlantic in China is half way around the world from here.

There could be a problem starting production at Valmet. Someone in another post mentioned that a great deal of production of other cars already being produced may be beyond the limitations of their facility.

[hr]

dennis said:
Jimmy Biggs said:

I live in Delaware and drive by the Boxwood Plant a few times a day. Fisker was NEVER going to build anything here in Delaware. They striped out all the production equipment and sold it for scrap. Even the politicians knew it wasn't going to get built here and publicly state it was a Biden campaign "Kick Back" ..........
And that was Democrat Politicians

Click to expand...

A startup company wouldn't spend $20M of their scarce capital to buy a factory they didn't intend to use. Especially when $300M+ of loan capital was dependent on using that factory. But they might sell off equipment that was obsolete for modern assembly techniques.

I hope Fisker finds another source of capital that allows them to pay off the $193M DOE loan so all of the politicians, Democratic and Republican, can just shut the f up.

Dennis, I think your last sentence hit the nail on the head!!!![hr]

SoCalGuy said:
Let's not all forget about $60B in bailout - yes BILLION - that went to GM (aka Government Motors) and Chrysler. Think of what alternative fuel vehicles could have been developed with that cash! Given Fisker developed the Karma with a total capital spend of just $700-800M and Tesla has raised a total of $1.2B to develop three vehicles ($350M in VC, $400M in public equity and the balance in the DOE loan). I'd much rather have invested $60B creating 10-20 brand new American car companies than saving two legacied, mismanaged and challenged Detroit car companies.

Very interesting perspective, ditto, well-said!

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