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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, I'm sad. I was driving home from work with 0 mile of battery left, 6 blocks from my home, about 5 seconds after the engine started (1 Block from my home) there was a very loud grinding sound from the front of the car and the ICE went to full throttle for about 10 seconds, then shut off completely. Then a warning display came up on both displays that said "Critical Powertrain fault" "Contact Service Center". The car kept running on batteries very slowly and by now I was only 300 feet from my house and coasted home. I am waiting for a flatbed now. Anybody seen or heard about this one? :huh:

30 Min later followup...Fisker Miami (Robert Manrique) has a Flatbed with a new Jaguar loaner car already rolling!!! Those guys own!:)
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Wow - how many miles did you put on your Karma so far? How long have you had it? 6.15?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
RE: Critical Powertrain fault

I have had the car about 6 weeks and 1500 miles. Almost no ICE driving at all.

BTW... current thinking between Fisker Dealership people, Fisker America People and I is the coupling between the ICE and the Generator failed. Apparently there has been some sort of problem with this component. I will post what they find.

No 6.15 yet even though they want to put it on with this repair.
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Hang in there. Thanks for the heads up.
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Wow, sorry to hear that. I'm in the opposite camp. I have about 1,200 miles on my car, of which I'd say 1,100 or so are in Sport mode (don't have a fast charger at home yet). So far, haven't had those issues. I'd like to do a couple of weekends of pure electric (maybe 1-3 full charge/discharge cycles to make sure my battery range is decent).
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

kwsmith007 said:
Well, I'm sad. I was driving home from work with 0 mile of battery left, 6 blocks from my home, about 5 seconds after the engine started (1 Block from my home) there was a very loud grinding sound from the front of the car and the ICE went to full throttle for about 10 seconds, then shut off completely. Then a warning display came up on both displays that said "Critical Powertrain fault" "Contact Service Center". The car kept running on batteries very slowly and by now I was only 300 feet from my house and coasted home. I am waiting for a flatbed now. Anybody seen or heard about this one? :huh:

30 Min later followup...Fisker Miami (Robert Manrique) has a Flatbed with a new Jaguar loaner car already rolling!!! Those guys own!:)
Sorry to hear about that fault that problem was addressed on the per production cars I haven't heard of this happening on production cars I'm just wondering if running down the battery to 0 miles and the heavy load put on the generator had something too do with the problem .I'm not saying you shouldn't run the battery to 0 I've had plenty of cars come in with 0 on the battery without an issue just speaking out loud .
I'm sure the dealer will contact Fisker and what ever needs to be done to fix it will be taken care of . Keep us posted
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Harleyguy...

You may be correct...however when the failure occurred I was barely rolling, I was on a quiet residential street pulling away from a stop sign. I'm sure the load on the generator is much higher in sport mode and very hard acceleration, than in stealth mode with little battery help at 10 mph with very slight acceleration. In any regard I spoke with the Fisker America people and this was somewhat a surprise to them, but let us just say they where not totally astounded. I got the impression they were thinking something like "Dam one of those bad generator couplings made it into the field!" That's just my opinion and I could be wrong!
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Sorry to hear about this, I wonder if the load from the ICE through the generator to recharge the battery was just too much. You said that the ICE went into full throttle. Is it possible team that the ICE simply overreved the generator? I'm envisioning the videos of how the stuxnet virus destroys a generator at a power plant.
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Deep Ocean said:
Sorry to hear about this, I wonder if the load from the ICE through the generator to recharge the battery was just too much. You said that the ICE went into full throttle. Is it possible team that the ICE simply overreved the generator? I'm envisioning the videos of how the stuxnet virus destroys a generator at a power plant.
It's equally likely that the engine over revved when the coupling with the generator was lost and the engine was running in "Neutral" without a load to slow it down, like a boat losing its propellor. Either way, it sounds like a serious issue and Fisker engineers need to get on it pronto.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
RE: Critical Powertrain fault

I'm a Mechanical Engineer and just for fun I spent some time thinking about this and I'll offer my wild guess what happened. I am also offering a contest, also just for fun.

If we assume that the failure was indeed the coupling between the ICE and the generator (which I think is very likely) we can almost guess what the coupling will look like. On the ICE end I'm sure it's an external spline to mate with an internal spline on the PTO end of the ICE crankshaft, assuming the coupling isn't some complex construction to absorb vibration or to allow for shaft miss-alignment, then the generator end must either be a bolted flange ring or another spline to transfer the torque. In either case the coupling will be a heat treated steel cnc lathe part with at least one external spline and maybe two. and at least one abrupt change in diameter. Such a part would almost certainly be heat treated in a case hardened condition so that the surface of the spine is very hard, and the internal material is less hard and tougher to eliminate brittle fracture failure under shock loads. (Like power pulses from a 4 cylinder ICE). Because the lowest strength section of the component is probably the minor diameter of the spine, right where the spline leaves the crankshaft, it's unlikely the Fisker Engineer got too cute and designed the coupling too small in diameter, because this diameter is fixed by the GM designed internal spline in the crankshaft.

So...my guess is at some point in the shaft where the diameter changes the designer had a radius to minimize the stress at this transition, and this radius was left off in fabrication, or the heat treatment was done improperly. Or both. Minor mistakes, easy fixes.

My little online Engineering contest

I've got a great bottle of Bordeaux as a bet to anybody that get's it closer to than that! Just post your analysis here and when we get the report back I'll look at the component that failed (I'm sure the failure mode will be obvious on quick inspection.) If anybody has a more accurate guess on what happened I'll send them a great bottle of wine. And you Fisker guys can play as long as you don't cheat. :)
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

kwsmith007 said:
I'm a Mechanical Engineer and just for fun I spent some time thinking about this and I'll offer my wild guess what happened. I am also offering a contest, also just for fun.

If we assume that the failure was indeed the coupling between the ICE and the generator (which I think is very likely) we can almost guess what the coupling will look like. On the ICE end I'm sure it's an external spline to mate with an internal spline on the PTO end of the ICE crankshaft, assuming the coupling isn't some complex construction to absorb vibration or to allow for shaft miss-alignment, then the generator end must either be a bolted flange ring or another spline to transfer the torque. In either case the coupling will be a heat treated steel cnc lathe part with at least one external spline and maybe two. and at least one abrupt change in diameter. Such a part would almost certainly be heat treated in a case hardened condition so that the surface of the spine is very hard, and the internal material is less hard and tougher to eliminate brittle fracture failure under shock loads. (Like power pulses from a 4 cylinder ICE). Because the lowest strength section of the component is probably the minor diameter of the spine, right where the spline leaves the crankshaft, it's unlikely the Fisker Engineer got too cute and designed the coupling too small in diameter, because this diameter is fixed by the GM designed internal spline in the crankshaft.

So...my guess is at some point in the shaft where the diameter changes the designer had a radius to minimize the stress at this transition, and this radius was left off in fabrication, or the heat treatment was done improperly. Or both. Minor mistakes, easy fixes.

My little online Engineering contest

I've got a great bottle of french wine as a bet to anybody that get's it closer to than that! Just post your analysis here and when we get the report back I'll look at the component that failed (I'm sure the failure mode will be obvious on quick inspection.) If anybody has a more accurate guess on what happened I'll send them a great bottle of wine. And you Fisker guys can play as long as you don't cheat. http://fiskerbuzz.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
Hahaha, we all know crack relief stress. :D

Would be really interesting to see a possible 2-speed gear box design for the Atlantic try to couple the electrical motor to the wheels.
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

I would guess there is flexible joint between the engine and generator.
I think this flexible Joint just failed. I see them fail in boats too where they are installed between the propeller shaft and reduction box.
FD.
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

kwsmith007, is actually pretty close on the overall design, and it was considered to be the weakest point in the entire link and caused some great headaches for a while.



in simplest terms, it is the dampner (center) portion of a manual clutch disk. the outer cage is bolted the engine flex plate and holds a series of springs connecting it to the center carrier w/ splines to link it to the generater.

the ICE operates in a series of pulses and the generater in series of phases you do need something here to smooth out the two. The ICE misfire detection comes from watching the firing pulses and the variance they cause in the engine rpm. becuase the generater moves in a series of pulses it self if there was a direct connection between the two, the ICE would not operate becuase the pulses from the generater would be mistaken as misfires due to the variance they cause in crankshaft speed. thus the need for a dampnend coupler. the occasional rattle type sounds is actually the springs in the coupler bottoming out and the engine and generater forces colliding. the engine and generater have to learn each others pulses for them to function, otherwise the ice gives up thinking it is misfiring (which kills the cat converter and the coupler in short order if left to occur). prior to 613.5 approx 40% fot he cars left the factory unlearned and took about 250 miles of operation to function. 613.5 updated the calibrations and allowed the two to start working in about 10 starts. 615 has smoothed things out further.

Now fisker is about the only one doing a spring dampner in this application and new deisgn is being considered, because of the liabilities it has. Ford and Toyota use a slipper clutch style coupler, GM uses a hydralic dampner (think self contained torque converter) and none of them have had issues with their setups.

As for what happened: very well could be the coupler failed, broken spring being my guess, or just as easily the ECM and GEN got into a fight over which pulse were which (thus speeding up if it was a load induced misfire) and the ICE finally saying, screw it i quit and shuting down. this triggering a loss of current when the HCM was requesting it and triggering a Powertrain fault. if the noise is present on the next startup, then it would be mechanical. if its quiet, then its software.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Wow...you win info wise. I'm not sure if you qualify for the Bordeaux. Insider info and all. :) If your correct in all regard I'll put it to a vote for the wine. Seriously...that's super interesting WAY more complicated than I thought. I guess I was thinking 1960 style failure modes. I guess I'm just getting old.
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Nimisys said:
kwsmith007, is actually pretty close on the overall design, and it was considered to be the weakest point in the entire link and caused some great headaches for a while.



in simplest terms, it is the dampner (center) portion of a manual clutch disk. the outer cage is bolted the engine flex plate and holds a series of springs connecting it to the center carrier w/ splines to link it to the generater.

the ICE operates in a series of pulses and the generater in series of phases you do need something here to smooth out the two. The ICE misfire detection comes from watching the firing pulses and the variance they cause in the engine rpm. becuase the generater moves in a series of pulses it self if there was a direct connection between the two, the ICE would not operate becuase the pulses from the generater would be mistaken as misfires due to the variance they cause in crankshaft speed. thus the need for a dampnend coupler. the occasional rattle type sounds is actually the springs in the coupler bottoming out and the engine and generater forces colliding. the engine and generater have to learn each others pulses for them to function, otherwise the ice gives up thinking it is misfiring (which kills the cat converter and the coupler in short order if left to occur). prior to 613.5 approx 40% fot he cars left the factory unlearned and took about 250 miles of operation to function. 613.5 updated the calibrations and allowed the two to start working in about 10 starts. 615 has smoothed things out further.

Now fisker is about the only one doing a spring dampner in this application and new deisgn is being considered, because of the liabilities it has. Ford and Toyota use a slipper clutch style coupler, GM uses a hydralic dampner (think self contained torque converter) and none of them have had issues with their setups.

As for what happened: very well could be the coupler failed, broken spring being my guess, or just as easily the ECM and GEN got into a fight over which pulse were which (thus speeding up if it was a load induced misfire) and the ICE finally saying, screw it i quit and shuting down. this triggering a loss of current when the HCM was requesting it and triggering a Powertrain fault. if the noise is present on the next startup, then it would be mechanical. if its quiet, then its software.
Absolutely fascinating to read. :thumbup:
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Nimisys said:
Now fisker is about the only one doing a spring dampener in this application and new design is being considered, because of the liabilities it has. Ford and Toyota use a slipper clutch style coupler, GM uses a hydraulic dampener (think self contained torque converter) and none of them have had issues with their setups. ...
Fascinating. I imagine the hydraulic system would be the most reliable but least efficient. If the slipper clutch can handle the load it might be the best compromise.
 

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RE: Critical Powertrain fault

kwsmith007 said:
Wow...you win info wise. I'm not sure if you qualify for the Bordeaux. Insider info and all. :) If your correct in all regard I'll put it to a vote for the wine. Seriously...that's super interesting WAY more complicated than I thought. I guess I was thinking 1960 style failure modes. I guess I'm just getting old.
It was 1960 style failure. That looks like the clutch disc in my 1962 Plymouth. I replaced it many times.
BillyO
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
RE: Critical Powertrain fault

Harleyguy if you have something better than Nimisys, Sure why not, his posting was unbelievably interesting. BTW
 
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