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betch23 08-18-2015 04:53 PM

My Fisker Article
 
My hope is that this will benefit you all in someway or another when it is published.

The Truth about ?The New Fisker? article by Robert R. Betcher

After about a year of research, I decided to buy a Fisker. It was a well thought out decision, where all was to be made right by the buyout of Fisker by Wanxiang.

However, take this as a warning to those of you considering the purchase of a New or Used Fisker. There is little to no support offered by the New Fisker. This company wants to strategically purchase all that is good about Fisker while not offering any warranty support for issues and problems plaguing the current Fisker owners.

How do I know about ?The New Fisker?? My first experience was when I reached out concerning the numerous .exe errors appearing on my primary computer screen within the vehicle in which they refer to as the CIU. I asked very direct questions about why I was receiving these numerous Windows Operating system errors? Yes, you heard correctly, they did not build on a Linux platform or build a Native proprietary system, but built on Windows.

Even after asking numerous questions surrounding the current architecture of the CIU and future architecture of the CIU, I still did not get a straight answer. This left me gravely concerned that not only are they not going to address these looming defects in their CIU architecture for current Fisker owners, but there was no mention on fixing these issues in the future. I am not sure their lack of response left me concerned or the lack of mentioning one proactive step to resolve these issues gave me reason to worry. So, in a nutshell, there is a good chance that Fisker owners, new and old will be dealing with many computer issues surrounding the operation of their vehicle, ultimately leaving them stranded 100+ miles from the nearest service center.

Don?t believe that a Fisker can be left stranded hundreds of miles from a service center? Well, let me tell you my experience when the rear end of my Fisker Karma completely blew out. I was driving through New York when I heard a horrible screeching coming from the rear end of my vehicle. The metal on metal grinding was almost deafening. Suddenly, my car losses all power on one of the most busy interstates in New York. Thankfully, I was able to cruise to one of the least savory neighborhoods in New York, where I stuck out like a sore thumb. 3 hours later, and luckily not mugged or carjacked, I was able to have a tow truck pick up my vehicle and tow it to the nearest Fisker Service Center 100+ miles away for just under $400.

After the technician at the Service Center inspected my vehicle, he determined that I would need to replace many of the parts on the rear transaxle of my Fisker for upwards of $20K. However, if I want to look into some 3rd party options, I can have the rear end or RDU rebuilt for $8500.00, whereby Fisker will reimburse $2000. So, with tax, parts and labor the total will be closer to $10K to fix the rear end of the vehicle.

This is just one of the possible areas where Fisker owners may have to pay exorbitant costs to keep their low mileage Fisker running. There are still issues reported with batteries, power inverters and many other high dollar components.
Now many of you who are thinking about a new Fisker, and might be saying to yourself, ?it is okay, the New Fisker will warranty my vehicle.? Really? The same way they warrantied the current Fisker owners? What will keep them from declaring insolvency and selling the company to avoid warranty work?

In the end, if there is a consideration to purchase a Fisker, then I would urge potential owners to learn from my experience and look to other options.

Arch fisker 08-18-2015 06:03 PM

For someone who clearly spent alot of time researching Fiskers, you could have spent less than $100/yr to get AAA plus - it costs you nothing for a 150+ mile tow - for ALL of your vehicles.

As far as your complaints of the systems in the Fisker, if you wanted something that you can be sure won't break down or has the finest computer controls buy a generic Mercedes, BMW or other mass produced car. Leave the pleasure of owning a unique product to those of us who are comfortable with the risk reward of the experience.

PowerSource 08-18-2015 06:05 PM

Just as a FYI the current CIU and DIS are built on RTOS QNX not windows or linux. Both of these were done by suppliers not Fisker themselves; they basically were stuck with what the supplier gave them. Ditto for the battery, inverters, vcm, rdm etc. The blame should ultimately fall on Fisker I agree but they got screwed pretty badly by the suppliers and their hands were/are tied. Hopefully they learn from the mistakes and are given an opportunity to control their own destiny this time around by being able to fix bugs without being a slave to the supplier.

LonePalmBJ 08-18-2015 06:09 PM

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience. It certainly is not reflective of my experience of 3+ years of Karma ownership or my interactions with the New Fisker. I am extremely pleased and frankly surprised by the level of support they have brought to the existing owner community they inherited. I think it is inaccurate and unfair for you to portray the specific issues with your situation as representative of the company in general, but of course you're free to do what you wish.

Your article is also factually wrong. The CIU is demonstrably not built on a Windows platform and if you would have spent even an hour researching in these very forums you could have discovered that. As for your ominous 'grave concern' that the new Fisker was not going to enhance the CIU there's absolutely no evidence to support your claim and plenty of evidence to the contrary. The new company has already announced a planned "Baseline 540" software release specifically targeted toward improving the CIU experience. I have no idea why you would expect the company to answer questions about its proprietary software and architecture but their refusal to do so is evidence of nothing.

I also do not know what you hope to accomplish with your 'article'. I'm not sure how fear mongering, damaging the reputation of the company or negatively impacting the perception of the brand (which impacts all of us owners) is going to achieve any meaningful purpose. Is your intention really to 'warn prospective buyers' or just to complain and provide fodder to those with an agenda to push?

Please do not presume to speak for me or other Fisker owners. I would hope you have the integrity to state clearly that your entire frame of reference is based upon your experience as a second-hand owner of one vehicle for less than a year and that you have no actual corroborating evidence to support your suspicions.

Brent

SC Karma 08-18-2015 06:26 PM

@betch23, I'm really sorry that you feel that way. If you really done your research as you stated, then you knew the risks of owning a Fisker. At the same time, there are ways to mitigate those risks such as having a pre-inspection done before you buy or look up to see what has been done to the car. And if you are one of the 200+ owners that are under the CSP, you would be happy that The New Fisker took over; I know I am.

betch23 08-18-2015 06:54 PM

Thank you all for your responses.

Out of curiousity, how many of you service Fiskers?

PS I had countless emails to the New Fisker about the CIU and had to get my information from someone who worked directly with Fisker on the GPS about the OS.

betch23 08-18-2015 07:05 PM

Out of curiousity, how many of you service Fiskers?

Sigurd 08-18-2015 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 218850)
Out of curiousity, how many of you service Fiskers?

None of them. And, neither do I. Sorry you made a bad purchase after all your research. I've had my Karma since 2011 and still love mine. It's my daily driver.

betch23 08-18-2015 09:25 PM

None of them? Are you positive? None responded.

Thank you for your response; and glad that you have had such a great experience.

Seems to be quite a different experience than mine. Would have liked to had your same experience.

Sigurd 08-18-2015 09:27 PM

I've been on this board since 2011. I think I know who works on Karmas and who does not.

betch23 08-18-2015 09:33 PM

Thats great, I am happy for how long you have been on.

But I think we should let them speak for themselves. They all were all willing to be very vocal, so let's let them speak for themselves.

JCMorrill 08-18-2015 09:37 PM

I totally get why you're frustrated and angry. You have had a horrible experience.

That said, most of us have had a great experience with our cars and really good dealings with the new Fisker. What you have to accept (crappy as it is) is that the company who made your car is gone. And they left a lot of people stranded in their wake. But, the new one who bought the name and the factory equipment, isn't them. None of that management is the same. You can't be mad at the new family who moved in next door because the last owner stole your garbage cans. The new company didn't really owe us anything. They agreed to administer the CSP program which was a part of the the bankruptcy settlement. And, they have lived up to that (and sometimes exceeded it for no other reason than current owners are their best marketing tool). And, they have spent the last 3-4 months quintupling (?) the number of places in the US that you can get service. It's not perfect, yet, but it's way better than it was.

When did you buy your car? It sounds like you bought yours used (as you referenced $2K of CSP money). If that's true, you got a $110K (or more) car at a very cheap price as the market had quickly adjusted to the idea that support would be tough to find. You took a risk (the same one I did, buying my car in January before The New Fisker started operations). Part of that risk was self-warrantying your own car. It kills me that anybody has had a bad experience. It could have been any of us, and it was bound to be some of us. But, it was a risk I understood when I bought. And, things are WAY better now than they were 4 months ago.

Seems like your beef should be with the original Fisker if anybody. And, the people who really have had it bad are original owners whose cars had failed in 2013-2014. They had a "contract" that the original Fisker didn't live up to. (And, that had a lot to do with an Insurance Company not living up to their contract to replace the cars lost in Sandy).

P.S. I have no affiliation with Fisker (old or new) or any Fisker repair shop. I'm just an owner who thinks that the car is something special, and worth a risk. I would never have been able to be involved had they not been half price. So, I feel lucky. I am very sorry about your situation. Get yours fixed, and I know you'll fall in love with it. That's the best advice I can give you.

betch23 08-18-2015 09:47 PM

Thank you but I beleive firmly in Corporate responsibility; the good and the bad, even if bankruptcy occurred.

Throughout all of these posts, I have heard blame thrown toward the old Fisker and the old suppliers. The long and short of it all is when the investors bought Fisker they were aware of the issues. When you buy a company you don't just take the good and not honor the bad; business ethics 101.

My belief is that we all should expect the New Fisker to honor the bad and not just capatilize on the good. While some may be okay with being used in this manner, I don't feel comfortable with usery.

LonePalmBJ 08-18-2015 10:49 PM

I'm an old timer like Sigurd :). Just an owner, not a dealer, mechanic or in any way affiliated with Fisker old or new.

FiskerPhilly 08-19-2015 12:21 AM

Ok, here goes. While I can attest that no one replying here repairs the cars, as you know @betch23 I am, and I have ALWAYS remained impartial to either side here on the forums. Being on the ground level as the guy always delivering the bad news in these situations I have always taken the same stance. When a potential new buyer calls me I tell them the same, do the research and make sure you can afford this car in the event of these failures. These cars are basically prototypes put on the road at a developmental stage. I thoroughly explain the major failures and their cost, they are factual and at this point the blame on their failure has been accepted as new product growing pains and fairly traded for such a unique beautiful car.
Honestly, it is only because of this forum that a new buyer can explore EVERY good and bad about these cars. The second part of my new buyer discussion is to explore this forum IN DEPTH and then call me back with any questions. Most importantly I advise them to never buy a car without getting me or @Harleyguy a VIN first.
Lastly, as these owners felt abandoned by old Fisker, guys like myself and Adam have done what we can to keep the cars roadworthy with little to no parts supply at times. From our point of view we lost all technical and parts support so we felt the same pain. At one point as technicians we would only get paid on what work we produced, meaning we lost countless hundreds of unpaid hours figuring out how to fix hv batteries and rdms. WhIle I may hold Old Fisker responsible for alot of headaches, I can't see how the new company can be held responsible when they are only trying to pick up the pieces and rebuild. Does the new company know of the rdm problem upfront? Yes, however their responsibility is to fix it for the new Karma, not the old. Let's face it if all the used karmas for sale out there carried a factory backed drive train warranty would they be 50 grand?
My 2 cents and I do repair these cars...

Fabulist 08-19-2015 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 218906)
Thank you but I beleive firmly in Corporate responsibility; the good and the bad, even if bankruptcy occurred.

Throughout all of these posts, I have heard blame thrown toward the old Fisker and the old suppliers. The long and short of it all is when the investors bought Fisker they were aware of the issues. When you buy a company you don't just take the good and not honor the bad; business ethics 101.

My belief is that we all should expect the New Fisker to honor the bad and not just capatilize on the good. While some may be okay with being used in this manner, I don't feel comfortable with usery.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I sincerely hope that it does not require understanding math, in particular the concept of risk. Unlike those of us who paid in excess of $110K from a company that offered a warranty, you bought your car after the company was sold through Bankruptcy. I am not sure what type of research you did, but the Bankruptcy records are all public and have been widely discussed here.

Anyone with even a casual acquaintance with the concept of risk would recognize that the huge discount in the asking price of the Karma represents the risk associated with buying a car without a warranty or support from an established company, as set out very explicitly in the Bankruptcy proceedings, So basically, you want the discount but don't want to live up to the risk when things don't pan out. In short, it's not New Fisker, it's you.

If this is too advanced for you, consider this: even after spending $10K - $20K, to fix the RDM, you will still have a much cheaper Karma that those of us who bought them new.

Finally, don't use a word if you don't know what it means. "Usery" is not a real word. "Usary" is a real word but it means charging excessive interest which has nothing to do with your situation. Either way, you look like a complete idiot (which of course you are not) by using that word.

Stop blaming others for your own ignorance and lucre (real word -- look it up). It's not the end of the world. Get it fixed and enjoy it. The New Fisker owes you nothing.

betch23 08-19-2015 10:13 AM

BTW Fabulist, it is "usury" not "usary". I unfortunately type on my phone which results in typos often due to multi tasking.

Also, you may want to look at this portion of your post: "acquaintence with the cioncept", while you are correcting other's posts.

In the end, while I see many of your points and commend each and every one of you who used intelligence, unbiased opinions and forethought; I believe that there should be a better solution on the part of New Fisker. If you disagree, then pay out all your hard earned money to them. It is really your choice.

If it were me, and I purchased the company, I would issue a recall on specific defective items and make it right. But maybe I think much differently than the rest and try to make ethical decisions.

betch23 08-19-2015 10:30 AM

I can see part of your point Fisker Philly, but buying a company entails the good and the bad. As I mentioned prior, I believe there needs to be some form of copability on the New company. If they are taking the benefit of the old designs, the lessons learned from the prototyping and the supply chain artifacts, then in fairness there should be some reaponsibility taken.

Personally, offering $2k to $5k reimbursement(which why there is a difference between the two, escapes me) does not come remotely close to the $10k-$20k in defective drive train parts.

In my humble opinion, why wouldn't the new company go back to the parts manufacturer and pursue a recall, especially if they are still using their parts?

Again, I would handle this much differently because whether I did or did not buy the company out of Bankruptcy, I believe customers come first and there would be no Fisker without them. I would have long term strategy in place to deal with such issues because it is the ethical decision; a decision that would not entail reimbursing pennies on the dollars.

This maybe why I am not in the Car business because I would stay up all night to figure out how to make this right, even to those of you who that have been less than pleasant.

Antonin 08-19-2015 11:12 AM

I think on one level we feel your pain betch23, on another level everyone points to this forum that has been extremely generous with sharing info (good and bad) on our cars. It is understandable to feel very upset about spending large sum of money to fix what should be working for quite long time (drivetrain), but as many said before me, you have been warned by your diligent research that this car is not for faint-hearted.

Also, you seem to imply that the new company should somehow shelter responsibility for the actions of the old company. I am afraid that this is not how it works in bankruptcy proceedings. Otherwise all the creditors could come and say - hey, you still owe me!

Let's hope that your repair bill is not as high as you are indicating and please note that there are other ticking-bomb problems that might surface (HV battery, display, 12V battery failure, generator failure, etc.). But you know all that, after all you said you did your research so you took calculated risk vs.price - right?

betch23 08-19-2015 11:28 AM

I agree and disagree Antonin.

After years of witnessing sophisticated shuffling and reorganizations of companies, I see this issue haunting Fisker owners in the future. It is concerning that the parts blowing up are from the same location as the parent company...Not sure if that is or is not coincidence.

However, to yourself and those genuine individuals, who were informative and kind, my sincerest Thank You to all.

Nin ja 08-19-2015 02:47 PM

This is all to fun and I have to chime in -- Assume you are correct Betch23 in your point (which I not saying you are), but assuming, how would you (assuming you were the new fisker) prioritize the originally owners (who were primised a 6 YR warrenty) from the second hand owners who were promised nothing and bought at 50% discount ???

SC Karma 08-19-2015 05:27 PM

@betch23, you keep going back to corporate responsibility but what about personal responsibility. You had to know that support was minimal and that you were not going to get no more than a $2K Customer Support Program. No one pointed a gun at your head to make you commit to buying a Fisker and yet you did. So I just don't see how the New Fisker is to blame for this.

betch23 08-19-2015 05:49 PM

SC Karma, new to the thread?

Do you repair Fiskers?

betch23 08-19-2015 05:51 PM

BTW SC Karma, please tell me your background and the classes on business ethics you took. Thank you.

LonePalmBJ 08-19-2015 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 219170)
Do you repair Fiskers?

Not sure why you are obsessed with this, but let me save you some time. The only people on this forum that repair Fiskers are HarleyGuy, FiskerPhilly and AlexPop. Occasionally you'll see KarmaNews who isn't a tech but does work for the new fisker.

This is all something you could easily determine by looking at someones profile, looking at their post history, etc. You know, doing a little research and becoming informed.

betch23 08-19-2015 06:07 PM

Thank you LonePalmBJ, but I was under the impression that the thread was closed the last time I posted. It appears that many individuals like yourself want to keep this discussion alive, so I will be glad to do so until the last post.

Before I purchased, I asked many questions about the Karma, and guess how many mentioned the RDM and Chineses parts? You guessed it, zero.

I am not sure the rationale but anyone who would like to mention no ethical copability in the New Fisker (please note that their name is still Fisker), then send me $10k for a warranty that I will turn over to an overseas subsidiary.

For those of you without an ulterior motive, please disregard this post; the last thing I want to do is offend good decent people.

betch23 08-19-2015 06:28 PM

My Apologies LonePalmBj, my last post got cut off.

Let's say my Network Security /Penetration Testing Department of my Company sells you a contact. Then we go out of business. However, we sell the business in bankruptcy to another company, who received all accounts and assets. Do they have no responsibility? If so, then there is not an insurance company on the planet who will sell another Bond.

I have heard many opinions which I think is fantastic and great about these forums; everyone has a right to express themselves. Many feel that I am wrong and many feel I am right. Personally, I look to do business with individuals willing to stay out of the gray/ grey areas and into the white areas.

PowerSource 08-19-2015 06:49 PM

Any interest in selling your broken car as-is?

betch23 08-19-2015 07:06 PM

Thank you for reaching out PowerSource. I would feel bett

SC Karma 08-19-2015 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 219178)
BTW SC Karma, please tell me your background and the classes on business ethics you took. Thank you.

BTW Betch23, do you know anything about bankruptcy proceedings? Things were all settled in the bankruptcy court prior to you buying your car. What makes you think that things would change just because you bought your car? I certainly have not taken any business delusional courses. I think if your were to fall and break your leg on my sidewalk, you would definitely blame and sue me for it!

One more thing, I have not posted in any of the threads for awhile but seeing your "article", it just struck a nerve in me. At least take some of the blame and move on. Whining is not going to get your car running!

betch23 08-19-2015 08:03 PM

SC Karma, you still did not answer the questions, but since you are an expert on bankruptcy proceedings, please tell me your background.

BTW, in my line of work, I have not had to sue someone. Please IM me your personal email address and I will be glad to continue this discussion. Thank you for your response.

Fabulist 08-19-2015 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 219194)
Before I purchased, I asked many questions about the Karma, and guess how many mentioned the RDM and Chineses parts? You guessed it, zero.

Who did you ask, exactly? On this forum alone, there are two threads that are pinned to the Fisker Forum top page that prominently mention the RDM issue and the current Customer Support Program. They are:

Fisker Karma Buyer's Checklist

and

latest Information on Warranty Customer Support Program

In the former, the RDM/TM issues are the second item on the list on the first page, right after HV Batteries.

In the latter, the first post by @FiskerPhilly sets out in excruciating detail the CSP program set up by New Fisker after the BK.

Both threads include a number of questions and answers that clarify the various issues. in addition, there are a number of other threads like this one and this one from folks who are looking to buy a Fisker with very detailed responses by owners and technical experts. The RDM and Traction Motor issues are prominently featured on all of these discussions. It seems incredible that during your year of research, you could not uncover the only publicly accessible forum dedicated to the Fisker Karma and see all this information set out chapter and verse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 219194)
For those of you without an ulterior motive, please disregard this post; the last thing I want to do is offend good decent people.

I am not sure what you mean about ulterior motives, but pointing out, factually, that you suck at research, and now want to blame someone else for your failures is not really offensive, just very very sad.

SC Karma 08-19-2015 08:25 PM

@Fabulist, well stated!
@betch23, I'm out. There's no reason to reason with the unreasonable!

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...sonable-people

betch23 08-19-2015 08:28 PM

Intersting Fabulist, since the forum was not open to non owners. When it finally opened to non owners, I asked about looming issues, under my first account.

In addition, I contacted former owners and spent hours on this forum and google to uncover any issues.

So, what would you have done as an expert in research? Please tell me a little about your background since you feel so inclined to comment on others.

BTW, feel free to IM your personal email address and I will be glad to continue this discussion that you would like to perpetuate. Thank you.

betch23 08-19-2015 08:35 PM

I couldn't agree more SC Karma, looking forward to you response on my questions and please don't hesitate to IM me. Thanks for posting.

betch23 08-19-2015 08:47 PM

your (sp)

FiskerZee 08-19-2015 08:55 PM

Hi guys;

I generally tend to agree with you gents who took a negative position against the article. I am an engineer and a car enthusiast at heart. I knew Fiskers existed but only six months ago I started seriously looking at them. I also checked out many cars, believe me I checked them all out all kinds of expensive makes. I eventually fell in love with the Fisker. Before this I had a Mercedes, which had its engine out twice within four and six years of its date of manufacture due to faulty and leaking seals. The repairs were $10,000. It also had a myriad of other problems. The Fisker is by far the most beautiful and unique car on the road. I love driving it, and it gives me thorough satisfaction although I have only really owned mine for two days. Sure, I know there will likely be some problems, but honestly what car does not have problems today unless you want some boring people mover!!.

The guy (Fisker) went out of his way to manufacture an awesome car and for a variety of reasons he failed, well not him but his company. There is an element of risk in buying and owning these cars for sure ad they are by no means a reliable Lexus LS 460 or Mercedes S class (although mine was garbage).

I feel sorry for the gentleman who had all the problems with his Fisker, but believe me I have been on Mercedes boards and forums where people are so angry at Mercedes they want to set fire to their cars. I say for a brand new manufacturer, he did not do too badly. We are driving a piece of history and it puts a wide smile on my face.

betch23 08-19-2015 09:03 PM

I could not agree more FiskerZee, Henrick Fisker did a great job with the design.

Unfortunately, the current and looming mechanical issues are concerning. Thanks for the post.

Nin ja 08-19-2015 09:22 PM

Moderator, I think it's time we just end this thread , it brings back bad memories when Brian did his video and this board was nothing but a pissing match.

IMHO, I think @PowerSource put an offer on the table to buy - why don't you @betchen23 just PM him and work out a deal to have him put an end to your fisker woes!

Sorry I had to do it to give us back some good KARMA ;-)

Fabulist 08-19-2015 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 219266)
Intersting Fabulist, since the forum was not open to non owners. When it finally opened to non owners, I asked about looming issues, under my first account.

This forum has always been, and remains, open to anyone who wants to join. I joined in April 2011, almost a year before I received my Karma. I found it by searching for "Fisker Karma" on Google.

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 219266)

In addition, I contacted former owners and spent hours on this forum and google to uncover any issues.

Why would you contact "former owners?" I would think the perspectives of current owners who live with, and use, their cars every day would be a lot more relevant than someone who does not. Also, your claim about spending hours on this forum seems dubious since you just said a couple of sentences above that (you believed anyway) that this forum was for owners only. The buyer's Checklist thread was started in June 2013. If you had spent 10 minutes on the forum in the last two years, you would have seen it since it was made sticky and pinned to the front page since the beginning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by betch23 (Post 219266)
So, what would you have done as an expert in research? Please tell me a little about your background since you feel so inclined to comment on others.

I don't claim any particular expertise in research, but have a passing familiarity with search engines such as Google and DuckDuckGO. But this is about you, not about me. After all, i am not the one that claim to have been a victim of "usery" by a post-bankruptcy entity that revived a failed car company because I could not be bothered to search for, I don't know, "buying a Fisker Karma" in Google where this forum would be the third or fourth result on the first page.

And, BTW, not thanks. I have no interest in "perpetuating" any discussion with you (do you have a word-of-the-day screensaver?). I have no interest in hearing you try to justify yourself. All I am interested in is setting the factual record straight, and my work here is done.

Edited to add: @Nin-Ja, Agreed. I am done with this thread also.


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