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Old 05-18-2017, 04:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I'm not hurt by KA, not at all, I'm just struggling to find the business reasoning. I understand that is costs money to offer support, but it also costs to market and sell.

Upon purchasing another company last year, I decided to support all the products made by the previous entity because it provided a customer base who were very happy to feel wanted. Sure, it's cost quite a bit, but less than sales and marketing to find an equal number of new customers. This is just my experience though, not necessarily true in every situation.

For KA, there are ~1200 of us Karma owners of which I dare say more than a few would be willing to upgrade if it had merit, so I wonder what the cost of sales and marketing would be to generate 1200 prospective buyers elsewhere? Is that number higher or lower than the cost of support? And what does that do to brand image?

They've made it known that finances are not a concern for them, so why not invest a little and make the launch a huge success with all us Karma owners cheering them on thanks to all the great support and bright future they have to offer us. There's a long list of folks on a petition that I don't think will be going to the party, which is a shame. It could have been different. No harm done but I think they missed a good opportunity - purely from a business perspective.

I could be answering my own question here, but maybe KA have already run these numbers and because there may not be enough merit in the new vehicle for a significant number of Karma owners to upgrade, that the expense of supporting us couldn't be warranted i.e. If we as a target market were deemed to have a low potential of being future Revero owners, then that would explain things.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I'm not hurt by KA, not at all, I'm just struggling to find the business reasoning. I understand that is costs money to offer support, but it also costs to market and sell.

Upon purchasing another company last year, I decided to support all the products made by the previous entity because it provided a customer base who were very happy to feel wanted. Sure, it's cost quite a bit, but less than sales and marketing to find an equal number of new customers. This is just my experience though, not necessarily true in every situation.

For KA, there are ~1200 of us Karma owners of which I dare say more than a few would be willing to upgrade if it had merit, so I wonder what the cost of sales and marketing would be to generate 1200 prospective buyers elsewhere? Is that number higher or lower than the cost of support? And what does that do to brand image?

They've made it known that finances are not a concern for them, so why not invest a little and make the launch a huge success with all us Karma owners cheering them on thanks to all the great support and bright future they have to offer us. There's a long list of folks on a petition that I don't think will be going to the party, which is a shame. It could have been different. No harm done but I think they missed a good opportunity - purely from a business perspective.

I could be answering my own question here, but maybe KA have already run these numbers and because there may not be enough merit in the new vehicle for a significant number of Karma owners to upgrade, that the expense of supporting us couldn't be warranted i.e. If we as a target market were deemed to have a low potential of being future Revero owners, then that would explain things.
To me it is quite obvious they want every single 2012 owner to purchase a Revero, the easiest way for them to do that is to not provide upgrades for the 2012 cars (and try to superficially distance the gap between the 2012 Karma and Revero). BL530 was essentially a disaster in that it removed battery balancing and caused many issues for owners. BL53x still has its own set of issues that Karma introduced (i.e. flash ready etc)- so from that perspective they actually introduced new issues- that never existed previously.


By supporting owners and the 2012 cars with updates they essentially cannibalize their Revero marketshare- in reality they could have easily offered upgrade packages for the 2012 cars, thrown them down the same line as the Revero and charged a premium for it. Further many of the spare parts they have are only worth scrap so it is better to monetize it by offering sales/service for existing cars rather than scrap it and move on.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
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@PowerSource - The strategy you suggest makes sense, it's just a different approach to market, I guess. It maybe a challenge but I think there's a way to better support the original vehicles without significantly cannibalizing future market though - a careful balancing act.

My preference is to fully support customer's needs, come what may, then rely on the loyalty earned to create new sales based on reputation of a great product AND great support. If they really believe in their product, I think they should fully embrace the original design and it's owners. Right now KA doesn't have a reputation and needs to earn a good one. Time will tell.
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I am new here (as you can tell by me post count), and as such, ignorant about the Karma and its systems, but I am trying to learn about it the best I can through this forum and surfing the web. I may be talking out of my a$$, but it seems to me the Revero isn't that different from the Karma in its engineering. As such, I can't figure out why they haven't utilized newer ideas/battery technology (if there is a thing) to gain better performance and range in the ballpark of the Tesla S. I just looked at Tesla's website, and they are touting their S model's range at over 300 miles and acceleration performance much better than the Revero. While the Karma is such a beautiful car with the Revero not far behind, Revero's practicality compared to the Tesla is six years behind the times. Am I missing something? If so, please edumacate me. Thank you!
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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[I]t seems to me the Revero isn't that different from the Karma in its engineering. As such, I can't figure out why they haven't utilized newer ideas/battery technology (if there is a thing) to gain better performance and range in the ballpark of the Tesla S. .... Am I missing something? If so, please edumacate me. Thank you!
Short answer: Yes, you are missing the following highly relevant piece of information: The same investors who bought Fisker Automotive (Now Karma) out of bankruptcy also bought A123, the company that made the original HV battery for the Karma, It would be awfully embarrassing if Karma went to someone else, like Tesla for example, for batteries. Probably not the answer you were hoping for, but it is unfortunately the real answer.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:16 AM   #16 (permalink)
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^^^

Thank you, Fab! Me thinks if I was the new owner of FA and A123, I would have developed a better battery for my new car to compete prior to me marketing it. But what do I know...
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:45 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I just looked at Tesla's website, and they are touting their S model's range at over 300 miles and acceleration performance much better than the Revero. While the Karma is such a beautiful car with the Revero not far behind, Revero's practicality compared to the Tesla is six years behind the times. Am I missing something? If so, please edumacate me. Thank you!
Welcome! Since you asked...
You are also missing the fact that the Revero is not trying to get 300 miles on electric range. Unlike the Tesla, the Revero can go from San Francisco to Miami and NEVER have to plug in. Why? Because it's a hybrid that can run on gasoline when needed, to state the obvious. You seem to imply that by NOT trying to beat the Tesla EV range, that somehow the Revero is "behind". It's not, at least not from that perspective.

Why does one buy a Maserati Gran Tourismo over a Mercedes AMG GT? The AMG GT is faster, has higher HP and better gas mileage. But so what? It grinds my gears when people harp on one or two attributes of a class-leading car and act as if every car company has to be the same. BMW doesn't try to beat McLaren. They can't. But people still buy BMW. Mini can't compete on speed with a Ford Focus RS, but people still buy Mini Coopers. The Revero doesn't need to beat a Tesla 0-60, nor does it need to beat it on electric range. It just needs to offer a combination of luxury, performance, style, and utility that some people may want. If you drive both cars, you'll recall that a car is far more than just its 0-60 time or its range.

Not everyone wants a Tesla (most of all me). And I certainly don't want to be on a long trip and have to worry about where to plug in. Although that anxiety is being addressed through time with more charging options, it's not there yet. Until that is completely resolved, give me a Revero any day over another Model S, which are as common as weeds in certain areas.
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Old 05-22-2017, 10:28 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Thanks, Dave. Points well taken and made. I LOVE the Karma...Most everything about it. While the Tesla is all battery, and as such, can go farther than a hybrid solely on battery, I'm just guessing the Revero boys could have upgraded the battery prior to its release and gotten, say, 150 miles on a single charge. That would have made the car even greater.
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Old 05-22-2017, 11:27 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Thanks, Dave. Points well taken and made. I LOVE the Karma...Most everything about it. While the Tesla is all battery, and as such, can go farther than a hybrid solely on battery, I'm just guessing the Revero boys could have upgraded the battery prior to its release and gotten, say, 150 miles on a single charge. That would have made the car even greater.
You are correct that current battery cell technology offers much higher density than the 2008-era battery technology used in the Karma. And there is at least one company, @PowerSource, experimenting with upgrading the Karma's battery using cells with higher storage density and doubling or even tripling the max EV-only range of the Karma for the same weight. They don't have an HV Battery that you can buy yet, but as I understand it, they are pretty close. It's too bad that Karma Automotive is shackled to A123 and cannot (politically) seek and deploy newer battery chemistary for new Revero, but that does not mean that no one is doing that.
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Old 05-22-2017, 01:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Welcome! Since you asked...
You are also missing the fact that the Revero is not trying to get 300 miles on electric range. Unlike the Tesla, the Revero can go from San Francisco to Miami and NEVER have to plug in. Why? Because it's a hybrid that can run on gasoline when needed, to state the obvious. You seem to imply that by NOT trying to beat the Tesla EV range, that somehow the Revero is "behind". It's not, at least not from that perspective.

Why does one buy a Maserati Gran Tourismo over a Mercedes AMG GT? The AMG GT is faster, has higher HP and better gas mileage. But so what? It grinds my gears when people harp on one or two attributes of a class-leading car and act as if every car company has to be the same. BMW doesn't try to beat McLaren. They can't. But people still buy BMW. Mini can't compete on speed with a Ford Focus RS, but people still buy Mini Coopers. The Revero doesn't need to beat a Tesla 0-60, nor does it need to beat it on electric range. It just needs to offer a combination of luxury, performance, style, and utility that some people may want. If you drive both cars, you'll recall that a car is far more than just its 0-60 time or its range.

Not everyone wants a Tesla (most of all me). And I certainly don't want to be on a long trip and have to worry about where to plug in. Although that anxiety is being addressed through time with more charging options, it's not there yet. Until that is completely resolved, give me a Revero any day over another Model S, which are as common as weeds in certain areas.
Very well said.

I'm mostly commenting so that I can easily find this post again later when I want to plagiarize it
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