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Old 12-13-2011, 01:39 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

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Originally Posted by brian
I've driven this car, and frankly it's good, but not great. It's a great eco-car for sure, but if you ignore the eco aspect and focus just on the car itself and the driving experience it's really just a B or B+.
(Emphasis Added)

@Brian: That's the logical flaw in your argument. You can't ignore the ECO aspects of this car since it was specifically designed to be a high-performance luxury ECO Car. Using your own example, this is like saying that if you ignore the great engine and drive train in the Mitsubishi 3000, it is not worth the price because it is butt-ugly ( I am no Ferrari expert, but if a designer at Ferrari designed anything that hideous, their entire family would be expelled from Italy and possibly from the whole of Eurpoe).

Fisker never set out the build the next Koenigsegg or Gumpert or Maybach. They set out to build a great ECO car, which you even concede, they have achieved. I am sure your Aston would come up short if you compared it to a Gufstream IV, but that completely misses the point too,

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Old 12-13-2011, 01:44 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

Ugg... ok... so here's the thing on that. The Karma is *not* a great Eco car. It only goes 50 miles on electric and then gets a lousy 21-25 mpg after that. Once again, it's a B not an A. This car just isn't as great as everyone is working it up to be. Yes, it's the only luxury eco car out there, so if that's what you're in the market for then it's the car to get, but that still doesn't justify the price.

-Brian
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:56 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

I wouldn't base my judgement of a car on one or two test drives of maybe 20-30 minutes. My dealer told me that the actual production cars are so much better compared to the pre-production cars. He - and I - drove a pre-production car that was produced in April and he drove a production car that was produced in September. According to him the difference is huge, it handles even better that it already did. Let's wait until we have all driven real production cars for a few months before we conclude whether the Karma offers value for money or not.
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian
es, it's the only luxury eco car out there, so if that's what you're in the market for then it's the car to get, but that still doesn't justify the price.
(emphasis added)

@Brian: I agree that the Karma is, at the moment anyway, sui generis and it could go either way. Neither you nor Fisker can dictate what the correct price of a Karma should be, only the market can do that. It's entirely possible that, like the Chevy Volt, the dealers can demand and receive a markup beyond the MSRP since this car is so unique and in such demand, or it may turn out that the dealers would have to discount them just to move them out. We just have to wait and see.

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Old 12-13-2011, 02:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

My lease just expired on a 2008 Lexus LS600hL, which my wife and I drove 45K miles. It cost $115K and is a hybrid luxury sedan, so IMO it is a valid comparison to the Karma at the new pricing. The Lexus weighs 5000 lbs., 0-60 is 5.5 seconds, and because of the hybrid powertrain it got 50% better gas mileage than the V-12 BMW it replaced under similar hard driving. Here's my report card (I've had 2 test drives in the Karma):

Karma LS600
Styling A B
Performance B B+
Handling A C
Eco-cred A- B
Comfort B- A-

So the Karma stacks up well. But the market is moving and the real late 2012 competition may be the 300 mile range Tesla Model S at $80K. I've sat in one but haven't driven it. On paper, it looks like a straight-A student, unless you want to drive from San Francisco to LA.

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Old 12-13-2011, 02:39 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

One year from now that $80K Model S will probably not cost $80K anymore.
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:39 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

The Model S is definitely nice, but I actually don't like the front end of it much: it reminds me too much of a shark. I also wonder how it will handle if you have the 300-mile battery pack (which one should also note is really a "not more than 300 mile" range, one can probably expect something like 270 miles on a full charge in general, like the 45 miles Edmunds got from their 3-day test of the Karma). The extended range pack uses higher energy density cells but is still going to be quite heavy, and one big reason the Karma's 0-60 time is low by comparison to other similarly-powered cars is due to the Karma's weight, including the 600 lbs of battery. (The frame is pretty heavy too—mass-produced cars use monocoque unibody construction to hold weight down—and the electric motors are heavier-duty than needed, due to being designed for military use, probably in armored vehicles. Quantum Worldwide reported in their latest 10Q that they are working on a lighter-duty power train for the Nina.)[hr]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch
One year from now that $80K Model S will probably not cost $80K anymore.
Well, we'll have to see ... originally it was intended to be roughly $70k (~50k for base plus ~20k for biggest batteries) so it's already done its first step up. More interesting to me is whether it will be out in only one year from now.

I have a rule of thumb I use when investing in tech stuff: "it costs more, and takes longer" (than projections, even when the projections assume that it costs more and takes longer...).[hr]
By the way, I should add that Motor Authority and Edmunds Inside Line have both confirmed the price increase. Haven't heard from my local dealer yet though
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:01 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

The 300 mile Model S still lists for $77K. The $70k price they quote is after the Fed rebate. Since they haven't published option pricing yet, I rounded up to try to get an apples to apples with the Karma.



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Old 12-13-2011, 03:07 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

Just received this email from my Dealer (Fisker Marin):

Quote:
We have received our first shipment of Karmas!
Test-drives are now available.
Pricing to Increase: Place Your Order Now!
Orders taken by this Thursday, December 15, 2011
will be price-protected against a 6% factory price-increase.
Placed a deposit but not ordered your Karma?
Deposit holders must place an order by January 15, 2011
in order to be protected against the 6% price increase.
If you have already placed an order for your Karma and
are waiting for delivery you are also price-protected.
Not the best-written email but certainly gets the points across.

-- Fab.
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:38 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fox News reports increase in Karma price

I agree with Fabulist, for a $100k car, a $6k boost in price isn't a huge amount. Inflation is rearing its ugly head, especially in the industrial commodities. I'm actually surprised the increase wasn't 10%.

Tesla has managed to keep their promised base price the same, but we don't know yet what they're going to charge for the options, or even for the Signature edition. Plus, I'd bet that like Fisker, they'll be forced to increase their base price shortly after they start deliveries.

Inflation is no fun!
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