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Old 12-02-2015, 03:31 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I heard Henrik say on more than one occasion that once you get beyond basic transportation, emotion becomes very important in selecting one car over another. We each have an inner narrative about our lives and we pick cars that fit that narrative. Like @FiskerZee, I am an engineer and love technology, but I also like to think of myself as iconoclastic, which draws me away from the majority's choice to something rarer and more unusual, and the Karma fits the bill for me. The rise, fall, and resurrection story is a great bonus.

As for the next generation of the Karma, which was the original topic of this thread, I agree that the Solar panel should be, at the very least, optional. @PowerSource is doing great work on changing it to a panoramic roof, which would be a great option to have for the new Karma which does not require re-engineering the car.

I think that in general, offering a superleggera version of the Karma would be a great easy option. Shedding weight by replacing the adjustable heated seats with simpler seats, taking out the Solar Roof and glass, adding a more aggressive front end etc. would help the car's performance without having to modify the drive train.

Obviously, upgrading the powertrain to get more performance out of it, plus adding @PowerSource's driving modes would be truly awesome.

The Karma is basically a good car. Just needs to be improved and there are plenty of low-hanging fruit.
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Old 12-02-2015, 04:03 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Adding another 15 miles to the range would be a huge bonus if the new car can take it.
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Old 12-02-2015, 05:33 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Adding another 15 miles to the range would be a huge bonus if the new car can take it.
I think @PowerSource can already do that with the battery upgrades, so it is definitely achievable.
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Old 12-02-2015, 08:18 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Seriously, AIJohn -- are you saying that rear sliding doors like many vehicles already have wouldn't have allowed the same kind of access without thousands of dollars of sensors & complicated hinging/winching?
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:00 PM   #35 (permalink)
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As a former original Fisker engineer there was much debate on the solar panel in 2009. The solar panel is one of the most asinine 'innovations' on the vehicle.
As I recall, the solar roof was initially an option. Not all cars were supposed to have it. But almost all pre-sale cars were being spec'd by customers with the "optional" solar roof, so they decided to make it standard, and raise the price of the vehicle.

I also believe the solar roof was the brainchild and technology of Quantum Technologies, the initial JV partner in creating Fisker Automotive with Fisker Coachbuild. Quantum may have had their own motivation for having that become standard.
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:15 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Seriously, AIJohn -- are you saying that rear sliding doors like many vehicles already have wouldn't have allowed the same kind of access without thousands of dollars of sensors & complicated hinging/winching?
Sliding doors are a far greater compromise, not to mention it increases the drag of the vehicle. These are the most advanced doors of any vehicle. The customers who are buying the X are paying for the most advanced vehicle on the road. Not even mentioning that sliding doors are inferior to the falcon wing setup in every way.

A grown man can enter the vehicle standing up. Watch the unveil.
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:56 PM   #37 (permalink)
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So, the original debate point we were rebutting was that the Fisker Solar Panel was an extravagant add on to the car that wasn't cost justifiable. We were making the point that the gull wing doors are likewise - an extravagant solution that could have been done less expensively, but a choice to be "out of the ordinary" was made. Not arguing that the gull wing doors aren't technically superior. I am saying that Tesla probably could have knocked thousands of dollars off the sale price if they hadn't done it. It's an affectation that is designed to generate a cool factor. Just like the Fisker Solar Panel. That's the crux of our argument: That one cannot argue that Elon would never include something so frivolous as our solar panel, when he did include the gull wing doors.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
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So, the original debate point we were rebutting was that the Fisker Solar Panel was an extravagant add on to the car that wasn't cost justifiable. We were making the point that the gull wing doors are likewise - an extravagant solution that could have been done less expensively, but a choice to be "out of the ordinary" was made. Not arguing that the gull wing doors aren't technically superior. I am saying that Tesla probably could have knocked thousands of dollars off the sale price if they hadn't done it. It's an affectation that is designed to generate a cool factor. Just like the Fisker Solar Panel. That's the crux of our argument: That one cannot argue that Elon would never include something so frivolous as our solar panel, when he did include the gull wing doors.
Sigh....

The goal of Model X was to allow for 3 rows of adult friendly seating with SUV styling. There is no other vehicle in this segment that allows adults ingress and egress while standing up. It solves a very real problem.

The solar panel in its current form serves no purpose except vanity, much like non functional hood scoops, coffee can exhausts and bolt on wings. The small fan that blows when warm is an innovation that has been on Benzes for decades called REST. No inefficient or expensive solar panel is needed.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:47 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Touche' Fisker Zee.... we tend to agree from similar points of view.

JC.. I didn't intend to say that the sliding doors wouldn't work. I was indicating the Musk would not allow it, it would ruin the design and make the Model X look like a mini-van. Just like the solar screen.... not needed, but neat.

Interestingly Fisker and Musk were together. Hendrick designed the initial Model S when he worked at Tesla. They parted ways -- messily. Hendrick won the patent suit and Tesla had to pay all cost.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fisker-c...tesla-lawsuit/

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Old 12-02-2015, 10:52 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Actually the solar panel serves a purpose it maintains the 12 volt battery while the car is parked in the sun. If the car didn't have the solar panel 4 weeks without using the car the 12 volt battery would be dead just like the cars left in the garage . Of all the cars I've worked on I've never seen a car like the Karma that has such a high draw on the 12 volt system while the car is sleeping it averages around .30 MV
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