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Old 08-11-2015, 09:49 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Actually, I wouldn't say that, at all. I'm sorry if I sound negative. I just want to understand. And, I absolutely get that you're the expert and I'm the layman in this conversation. So, maybe this will make it make sense for me. Can you tell us:

1. How much gas a non-moving recharge of the battery takes to get it from 0 to 50 (or 25 to 50)? I'd like to understand how that compares our current ~25 MPG? Is it 2 gallons? Is it less?
I am happy to answer all your questions but some basic research could get you in the ballpark.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=amount+of+energ...+gallon+of+gas

The first link shows that the average gallon of gasoline has 33.41kwh of energy

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=average+efficie...bustion+engine

The second link shows that the average effeciency of an internal combustion engine is 38%

What this means is that best case scenario each gallon of gasoline would produce 12.6 kwh of energy- with losses I would guess somewhere in the 11 kwh range. So effectively 1 gallon of gas would net 11kwh of energy into the pack. So 1.8 gallons of gasoline should get you a full 50 miles Google tells you all of this.


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2. Confirm how long it takes? (~25 minutes? That's cool!)
Depends if you are stationary if not if you are moving

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3. How cool does the environment need to be to avoid overheating? I live where it's above (to well above) 80 degrees at all times for months.
Are you stationary or moving? Stationary at partial load idle there is no issue and obviously we are not going to release a product that overheats Karma's

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Is this a mod that could be optioned on & off at will by the user? Because obviously, there could be times where performance higher on the list than economy/ecology and other times not.
Yes it will be another mode and not required
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:39 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Thanks. I see now it was Philly (not you) who raised the issue of overheating with A/C and the engine running, but not moving on Page 2. It had just stuck in my head.

All that makes perfect sense, I guess. The mileage for driving in Sustain mode would use the same energy as (in kWh or whatever) as driving in Stealth and as needed for charging up the battery. The car is pretty much always drawing from the battery and using the motor to "pay back the (power) loan" over time. So, it would take ~2 gallons (11 kWh) to charge the battery if not moving, and to keep the battery level while moving for 50 miles. Thanks for making it plain.

So, the primary benefit is keeping the battery above 60% for optimal performance. Or, scheduling when (on a longer trip) you get to use your Stealth Miles. Have I got it?

Last edited by JCMorrill; 08-11-2015 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:40 PM   #33 (permalink)
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There are several benefits some are:

1. For longer trips you can charge your battery if you cannot plug in and get a full charge a lot quicker rather than waiting 11+ hours on 110 or 6+ on 240
2. While driving you can recharge your battery to 80-90 pct SOC and have a full charge rather than deplete to 60% soc
3. In areas where ICE is not allowed (i.e city center) you can retain your mileage and use the vehicle with high SOC
4. Better trip fuel efficiency since excess energy goes back to the battery (at any SOC) rather than bled off. You get better blended fuel economy in range deplete rather than range sustain and can optimize when to sustain.
5. NVH
6. Potential for export power to other EV's and your home/business/tailgate etc
7. Battery balancing, repeated use of the vehicle at low SOC without a full charge has caused many batteries to be unable to balance itself and require removal and replacement of certain modules
8. Pre-conditioning- you can keep the vehicle nice and toasty or air-conditioned (parked outside of course) without depleting the battery
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Old 08-12-2015, 05:20 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I like 7 & 8 especially!! 3 makes sense to me, too. Good stuff! What is NVH?
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Old 08-12-2015, 05:27 PM   #35 (permalink)
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How do we buy? This thread has made me log back on after close to 3 years of inactivity.
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:19 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Karma stationary charging @ up to 15kw

http://youtu.be/G7lHbJuKZcY

Hood is open and windows are down. We have footage of the vehicle driving and rebuilding the pack on the fly. No thermal issues at all even on a close to 100 degree day here in SoCal.
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Old 08-17-2015, 09:26 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Another benefit that is not immediately obvious is that with charging-on-the-fly, you can use the Karma's full power is available throughout a long trip rather than just during the first 20 miles. Under the current control program, full power (360 KW) is only available when the HV battery is at 50%+ SOC. This means that the only time you have access to full power is at the beginning of a long trip. Once the battery dips below 50% SOC, your only options are to use what's left and then fall back on the Genset or to maintain the SOC, both of which only provide 180KW.

With ONTF charging, you can use the full power when you need it (merging, overtaking, etc.) and then have the battery charge back up to 50% during cruise periods and available for the next burst of speed you command. Of course, as long as the software is being modified, the 50% limit could be taken out and full power can be available at all time, which would probably be the best reason to get this option.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:33 PM   #38 (permalink)
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This is the "why" for this whole discussion that I was looking for. Because I couldn't see how it would make ANY difference in fuel economy no matter what you did -- other than to burn gas you might not have to by trying to save the Stealth miles until later. Which was all I was trying to say (long windedly, I guess) earlier.

But now that I think of it ... It does beg the question: What benefit from an overall average carbon footprint/fuel burn position did it actually create for Fisker to limit our options to just "sustaing" at 0-26 Stealth miles in the first place? The same argument that allowing the engine to recharge the battery to 100% doesn't save you any fuel, works in the other direction ... it doesn't cost you any more fuel either as long as you use the 50 Stealth miles somewhere on the trip. The only thing that "sustain only" mode does do is force you to use at least 24 miles per charge from Electricity.

So, @PowerSource could have fairly turned all my questions around on me. Why didn't Fisker allow us to keep maximum power availability when it doesn't actually burn more fuel to do it that way? (Again, so long as you use your Stealth miles somewhere on your trip)?
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:57 PM   #39 (permalink)
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This is the "why" for this whole discussion that I was looking for. Because I couldn't see how it would make ANY difference in fuel economy no matter what you did -- other than to burn gas you might not have to by trying to save the Stealth miles until later. Which was all I was trying to say (long windedly, I guess) earlier.

But now that I think of it ... It does beg the question: What benefit from an overall average carbon footprint/fuel burn position did it actually create for Fisker to limit our options to just "sustaing" at 0-26 Stealth miles in the first place? The same argument that allowing the engine to recharge the battery to 100% doesn't save you any fuel, works in the other direction ... it doesn't cost you any more fuel either as long as you use the 50 Stealth miles somewhere on the trip. The only thing that "sustain only" mode does do is force you to use at least 24 miles per charge from Electricity.

So, @PowerSource could have fairly turned all my questions around on me. Why didn't Fisker allow us to keep maximum power availability when it doesn't actually burn more fuel to do it that way? (Again, so long as you use your Stealth miles somewhere on your trip)?
While I do appreciate everyone's comments it seems as if you "realized" this in your previous post when you said this:

Quote:
So, the primary benefit is keeping the battery above 60% for optimal performance. Or, scheduling when (on a longer trip) you get to use your Stealth Miles. Have I got it?
To be honest I don't think you are the right customer for this product and I probably will not sell one to you anyway because you seem to be a pain in the butt type and supporting a sale to you would take up most of my day explaining every single nuance. I am sorry if I am offending you but people who know what this is don't ask these types of "justification" questions.
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Old 08-18-2015, 12:22 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Wow. Sir. You have unfairly judged me. I was not trying to be a pain. The "realization" was tonight was not the "keeping the battery at 60%" thing. You're right, there. The realization for me tonight was that it suddenly seemed odd to me for the first time, why would Fisker have limited us in the first place? Because my initial questions as to benefits could have fairly been flipped back one ME -- the fuel use could be the same either way, but you'd have the power if/when you needed it. So, why not? Why didn't Fisker let it happen? I'm sorry I didn't get that initially. And, I thought I was making it clear that I had suddenly realized why you were on the right track, and that I was just not getting it originally.

But, at no time was I trying to do anything negative or infuriating. And, I am sorry that I have offended you.

I do think it is fair to point out that you were the one that sarcastically put the "Let Me Google That For You" references earlier. Bating that I had originally chosen to ignore in the interest of trying to have an honest conversation. Which is, I thought, the point of this forum.

But, if I'm a pain in the butt customer ... is it not fair to wonder what you lack for being a customer oriented, business person? You're using this forum as free advertising, and not showing the willingness to articulate the benefits of your product. And, to somebody who's obviously interested in everything related to my Karma, and willing to listen. So, I think you are now more suspect as a provider than I am as a customer. Best of luck to you.
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