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Old 08-03-2015, 11:03 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WATTGAS View Post
Thanks for the answers on both questions. So it doesn't sound promising that the 6.6 kWh OBCM will be offered, but I'll wait and see.
Well I have a Karma + a 10kwh charger sitting in the garage

On another note you could buy something like this
http://www.brusa.eu/en/products/ener...ir-cooled.html

http://www.brusa.eu/en/products/ener...er-cooled.html
No CAN integration needed just looks at current draw and injects current based on taper curve.
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Old 08-03-2015, 11:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks for confirming FiskerPhilly. I would think if one could get the KARMA to charge efficiently with the ICE while driving, they would have done it (maybe). I have theorized that if the ICE were a diesel, with a lot more low end torque the charge scenario would be feasible. (just a educated guess).
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Old 08-03-2015, 11:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Well I have a Karma + a 10kwh charger sitting in the garage

On another note you could buy something like this
http://www.brusa.eu/en/products/ener...ir-cooled.html

http://www.brusa.eu/en/products/ener...er-cooled.html
No CAN integration needed just looks at current draw and injects current based on taper curve.
If I was handy with cars, you're right...I could buy chargers like those. I want my car to keep running smoothly so I won't touch it!

P.S. If I were a betting man, I would ask if @PowerSource is the new handle for Smooth.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:18 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I'll agree its a great technological feat for @PowerSource to get this to work, and I applaud his research. But, I am struggling to find a really good justification for why you would want to charge the car up with gas.

Say you're going 75 miles each way on a round trip. Let's be generous and assume 25 MPG in Sport Mode which makes the math easy. You use up your 50 (ish) Stealth miles on the way there, and burn 25 miles (~1 gallon) in Sport Mode gas, and then another 75 miles on gas (~3 more gallons) on the way home . So, you used ~4 gallons of gas. Or, you engage Sport Mode early and arrive with 25 Stealth Miles. So you used ~2 gallons to get there, and you'll use 2 more on the way home. Either way, 4 Gallons. Now, you could have burned more gas on the way up and arrived with 50 stealth miles. That's the same as driving all the way there on gas (3 gallons). And, then you can use those Stealth miles on the way back home and only burn 1 gallon. That would still cost you 4 total gallons of gas, and maybe more ... certainly not less. Where's the benefit?

Yet, if you arrive at your destination with no Stealth miles (and have the time), there is always a chance you could recharge at your destination, and ultimately burn less gas. An option not open to you if you burn the gas first and arrive with a full battery. If charging isn't an option, you go home on all gas and still burn the same 4 gallons. So, I still do not see a good reason charge your battery now with gas so you can drive it later without the gas ... when obviously you could just drive it later with the gas if you can't find a place (and/or the time) to charge? Why burn the gas up front?

Ultimately, it saves you nothing and buys you nothing -- other than maybe the noise comfort if you wanted to control when you wanted a quieter drive. As in, you don't mind the noise on the highway, but wanted 50 quiet miles when you arrive? (Instead of the current max of 26 which you could get by engaging Sport Mode earlier on the trip up). Can anybody, please give me a better scenario of why/when this feature would be better than what we have now?

Last edited by JCMorrill; 08-11-2015 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:24 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I'll agree its a great technological feat for @PowerSource to get this to work, and I applaud his research. But, I am struggling to find a really good justification for why you would want to charge the car up with gas.

Say you're going 75 miles each way on a round trip. Let's be generous and assume 25 MPG in Sport Mode which makes the math easy. You use up your 50 (ish) Stealth miles on the way there, and burn 25 miles (~1 gallon) in Sport Mode gas, and then another 75 miles on gas (~3 more gallons) on the way home . So, you used ~4 gallons of gas. Or, you engage Sport Mode early and arrive with 25 Stealth Miles. So you used ~2 gallons to get there, and you'll use 2 more on the way home. Either way, 4 Gallons. Now, you could have burned more gas on the way up and arrived with 50 stealth miles. That's the same as driving all the way there on gas (3 gallons). And, then you can use those Stealth miles on the way back home and only burn 1 gallon. That would still cost you 4 total gallons of gas, and maybe more ... certainly not less. Where's the benefit?

Yet, if you arrive at your destination with no Stealth miles (and have the time), there is always a chance you could recharge at your destination, and ultimately burn less gas. An option not open to you if you burn the gas first and arrive with a full battery. If charging isn't an option, you go home on all gas and still burn the same 4 gallons. So, I still do not see a good reason charge your battery now with gas so you can drive it later without the gas ... when obviously you could just drive it later with the gas if you can't find a place (and/or the time) to charge? Why burn the gas up front?

Ultimately, it saves you nothing and buys you nothing -- other than maybe the noise comfort if you wanted to control when you wanted a quieter drive. As in, you don't mind the noise on the highway, but wanted 50 quiet miles when you arrive? (Instead of the current max of 26 which you could get by engaging Sport Mode earlier on the trip up). Can anybody, please give me a better scenario of why/when this feature would be better than what we have now?
In my mind it is pretty simple, there is more performance at higher SOC with the Karma. Being able to retain > 60% SOC means that the vehicle will always have to most amount of performance available. If this works while driving then it will be possible to save all 50 miles stealth. Porsche already has this technology.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

Your comparisons with gallons of gasoline seem to be a bit misguided, in the EV world it is all about Watt-Hours/Mile. As of today we do not know how efficient it is to stationary charge the Karma as no figures have been provided. The other benefit is the ability to charge at 8-15kw stationary which is 3x to 5x times faster than plugging in. If this technology is available while driving and it is quicker then it seems like it would be possible to retain close to 90% soc and the full performance of the Karma without paying the sport penalty and losing 23-24 miles.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:14 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JCMorrill View Post
I'll agree its a great technological feat for @PowerSource to get this to work, and I applaud his research. But, I am struggling to find a really good justification for why you would want to charge the car up with gas.

Say you're going 75 miles each way on a round trip. Let's be generous and assume 25 MPG in Sport Mode which makes the math easy. You use up your 50 (ish) Stealth miles on the way there, and burn 25 miles (~1 gallon) in Sport Mode gas, and then another 75 miles on gas (~3 more gallons) on the way home . So, you used ~4 gallons of gas. Or, you engage Sport Mode early and arrive with 25 Stealth Miles. So you used ~2 gallons to get there, and you'll use 2 more on the way home. Either way, 4 Gallons. Now, you could have burned more gas on the way up and arrived with 50 stealth miles. That's the same as driving all the way there on gas (3 gallons). And, then you can use those Stealth miles on the way back home and only burn 1 gallon. That would still cost you 4 total gallons of gas, and maybe more ... certainly not less. Where's the benefit?

Yet, if you arrive at your destination with no Stealth miles (and have the time), there is always a chance you could recharge at your destination, and ultimately burn less gas. An option not open to you if you burn the gas first and arrive with a full battery. If charging isn't an option, you go home on all gas and still burn the same 4 gallons. So, I still do not see a good reason charge your battery now with gas so you can drive it later without the gas ... when obviously you could just drive it later with the gas if you can't find a place (and/or the time) to charge? Why burn the gas up front?

Ultimately, it saves you nothing and buys you nothing -- other than maybe the noise comfort if you wanted to control when you wanted a quieter drive. As in, you don't mind the noise on the highway, but wanted 50 quiet miles when you arrive? (Instead of the current max of 26 which you could get by engaging Sport Mode earlier on the trip up). Can anybody, please give me a better scenario of why/when this feature would be better than what we have now?
The only reason I would consider this option would be to utilize the ICE during highway driving and use stealth in the city - it seems to me the start and stopping at lights and idle times would logically yield better gas mileage - logically this makes sense to me?
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Old 08-11-2015, 02:25 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I'll agree its a great technological feat for @PowerSource to get this to work, and I applaud his research. But, I am struggling to find a really good justification for why you would want to charge the car up with gas.
Technically the vehicle is always "charging" up with gas as the ICE never powers the wheels. The issue with the current control schema is that it is bound by a strict load-following logic. What this essentially means is that the ICE will match the load requested by the HCU- of course this works quite well for electric motors but with an ICE there is always latency and many times when the ICE gets to where it should be there is a different load requested and the ICE must keep re-adjusting. This is not very efficient. Most generators run at synchronous speeds.

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Originally Posted by JCMorrill View Post
Say you're going 75 miles each way on a round trip. Let's be generous and assume 25 MPG in Sport Mode which makes the math easy. You use up your 50 (ish) Stealth miles on the way there, and burn 25 miles (~1 gallon) in Sport Mode gas, and then another 75 miles on gas (~3 more gallons) on the way home . So, you used ~4 gallons of gas. Or, you engage Sport Mode early and arrive with 25 Stealth Miles. So you used ~2 gallons to get there, and you'll use 2 more on the way home. Either way, 4 Gallons. Now, you could have burned more gas on the way up and arrived with 50 stealth miles. That's the same as driving all the way there on gas (3 gallons). And, then you can use those Stealth miles on the way back home and only burn 1 gallon. That would still cost you 4 total gallons of gas, and maybe more ... certainly not less. Where's the benefit?
It is much more efficient from an ICE perspective (will have numbers soon) to run the vehicle in range deplete mode vs range sustain mode as the max theoretical that the ICE will have to produce is 120kw and more likely closer to 80-90kw. Running the vehicle at <26/27 miles in range sustain mode is not very efficient for the ICE and also neuters the performance of the vehicle. As previously mentioned running at a constant efficient RPM will consume less fuel than a constantly fluctuating RPM. Furthermore the start/stop algorithm implemented can consume up to 10kw (for a short period of time), this starts to add up if you do city driving on the ICE. The whole purpose of this exercise is to keep the efficiency of the ICE optimal.

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Yet, if you arrive at your destination with no Stealth miles (and have the time), there is always a chance you could recharge at your destination, and ultimately burn less gas. An option not open to you if you burn the gas first and arrive with a full battery. If charging isn't an option, you go home on all gas and still burn the same 4 gallons. So, I still do not see a good reason charge your battery now with gas so you can drive it later without the gas ... when obviously you could just drive it later with the gas if you can't find a place (and/or the time) to charge? Why burn the gas up front?
Burning gas at <26/27 miles has a different efficiency coefficient than at higher SOC's. You burn less gasoline in range deplete mode. You can drive without gas, but one of the main purposes of this is to stay in range deplete mode so that the ICE operates more efficiently and that full performance is available without having to wait to plug in. Furthermore one of the projects we are working on is output power where the Karma will be capable of being used as a gen-set. You will effectively be able to run your home on the vehicle as a backup generator or even be able to charge other electric vehicles.

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Ultimately, it saves you nothing and buys you nothing -- other than maybe the noise comfort if you wanted to control when you wanted a quieter drive. As in, you don't mind the noise on the highway, but wanted 50 quiet miles when you arrive? (Instead of the current max of 26 which you could get by engaging Sport Mode earlier on the trip up). Can anybody, please give me a better scenario of why/when this feature would be better than what we have now?
Other OEM's have implemented this and from the feedback of other owners there is some value to having the full performance of the vehicle available all the time.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Ok. I get the full performance idea. But, that's changing the dynamic from being an Electric Car that has range extension, to being "using the gas & electric together to maximize performance. It's a different goal.

If your purpose is to minimize gasoline and use cheaper (if not cleaner - which depends) electricity then charging the battery "faster" with the ICE than with electricity isn't a valid consideration. It just means burning gas sooner rather than later. If you can find an algorithm to charge using less fuel than running in SPORT mode, that's a benefit.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ok. I get the full performance idea. But, that's changing the dynamic from being an Electric Car that has range extension, to being "using the gas & electric together to maximize performance. It's a different goal.

If your purpose is to minimize gasoline and use cheaper (if not cleaner - which depends) electricity then charging the battery "faster" with the ICE than with electricity isn't a valid consideration. It just means burning gas sooner rather than later. If you can find an algorithm to charge using less fuel than running in SPORT mode, that's a benefit.
Running at idle consumes less fuel than range sustain that is pretty obvious. Cleaner depends on where you plug in- charging your car with a coal powered plant is dirtier than running off gasoline. Appreciate your point of view but obviously you are not the customer for this modification.
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Old 08-11-2015, 07:52 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Actually, I wouldn't say that, at all. I'm sorry if I sound negative. I just want to understand. And, I absolutely get that you're the expert and I'm the layman in this conversation. So, maybe this will make it make sense for me. Can you tell us:

1. How much gas a non-moving recharge of the battery takes to get it from 0 to 50 (or 25 to 50)? I'd like to understand how that compares our current ~25 MPG? Is it 2 gallons? Is it less?

2. Confirm how long it takes? (~25 minutes? That's cool!)

3. How cool does the environment need to be to avoid overheating? I live where it's above (to well above) 80 degrees at all times for months.

Is this a mod that could be optioned on & off at will by the user? Because obviously, there could be times where performance higher on the list than economy/ecology and other times not.

Last edited by JCMorrill; 08-11-2015 at 07:54 PM.
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