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Old 08-21-2012, 04:59 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fisker gets new CEO after 6 months of Lasorda

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
noise, vibration and harshness. this really is in the context of the range extender - the noise, shuddering etc. you feel when it kicks in and when you accelerate for example in Sport mode. The Volt does this with amazingly low levels of NVH - kudos for GM on perfecting it.
I agree the volt makes little noise and has little vibration.... but think about it.. the Volt is weak..
so what car has more NVH?... a Mercedes C300 that puts out 228hp or a Mercedes C63 that puts out 451hp? (twice the power) although the Karma has more than 3 times the power vs the volt.

Volt Specs:
111 kW MAX output on traction motor
54 kW MAX output on generator
80 hp Internal Combustion Motor

Karma Specs:
250 kW MAX output on traction motor
175 kW MAX output on generator
260-hp Internal Combustion Motor

I'll take the shake, rattle and roll with more ponies any day.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:27 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fisker gets new CEO after 6 months of Lasorda

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyColorIsGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
noise, vibration and harshness. this really is in the context of the range extender - the noise, shuddering etc. you feel when it kicks in and when you accelerate for example in Sport mode. The Volt does this with amazingly low levels of NVH - kudos for GM on perfecting it.
I agree the volt makes little noise and has little vibration.... but think about it.. the Volt is weak..
so what car has more NVH?... a Mercedes C300 that puts out 228hp or a Mercedes C63 that puts out 451hp? (twice the power) although the Karma has more than 3 times the power vs the volt.

Volt Specs:
111 kW MAX output on traction motor
54 kW MAX output on generator
80 hp Internal Combustion Motor

Karma Specs:
250 kW MAX output on traction motor
175 kW MAX output on generator
260-hp Internal Combustion Motor

I'll take the shake, rattle and roll with more ponies any day.
Well remember that pretty much all the NVH in the Karma (and Volt for that matter) come from the ICE/gen combo and not the two electric motors. Also, the ICE never operates beyond 170hp (3500 rpm); it never gets to the 260hp 6,000 rpm peak that the Ecotec is capable of. The Karma's NVH signature is mostly notable at two specific and discrete points:

1. High power applications like acceleration

2. Start up/shut down of the ICE (you can feel the car 'wobble' at long stoplights when the ICE shuts down)

I'm hoping...

(1.) might eventually be improved with a redesigned (4.0) muffler that Karma 1.0 owners can retrofit onto our cars. Alternatively, a software upgrade could do the trick by running the ICE at lower RPM levels longer - in other words, rather than having it run at full 170hp throttle during acceleration, it could provide say 120hp at 2500 rpm and borrow more energy from the A123 battery (which as we all know, is capable of burst discharge of up to 50C or roughly 1,300hp). The ICE could then 'pay back' the borrowed energy by running at the lower hp level for longer, say a couple of minutes. It's a choice between a shout for a few seconds or a moderate whisper for a couple minutes. I'd prefer the latter!

(2.) Might be accomplished with a software upgrade that winds down the ICE more slowly so the wobble effect is less noticeable. I don't think the Ecotec was designed for start/stop like the new Ford and Chevy hybrid ICEs, so Fisker probably had to modify it for this application.
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Old 08-21-2012, 01:05 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fisker gets new CEO after 6 months of Lasorda

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyColorIsGreen
I agree the volt makes little noise and has little vibration.... but think about it.. the Volt is weak..
so what car has more NVH?... a Mercedes C300 that puts out 228hp or a Mercedes C63 that puts out 451hp? (twice the power) although the Karma has more than 3 times the power vs the volt.

Volt Specs:
111 kW MAX output on traction motor
54 kW MAX output on generator
80 hp Internal Combustion Motor

Karma Specs:
250 kW MAX output on traction motor
175 kW MAX output on generator
260-hp Internal Combustion Motor

I'll take the shake, rattle and roll with more ponies any day.
I've owned a Volt for 16 months and test drove a Karma a couple weekends ago. The performance of [the two] is a LOT less than those numbers would imply.

3,781 lb vs 5,300 lbs is quitte a bit to overcome.
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Old 08-21-2012, 01:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fisker gets new CEO after 6 months of Lasorda

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottf200
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyColorIsGreen
I agree the volt makes little noise and has little vibration.... but think about it.. the Volt is weak..
so what car has more NVH?... a Mercedes C300 that puts out 228hp or a Mercedes C63 that puts out 451hp? (twice the power) although the Karma has more than 3 times the power vs the volt.

Volt Specs:
111 kW MAX output on traction motor
54 kW MAX output on generator
80 hp Internal Combustion Motor

Karma Specs:
250 kW MAX output on traction motor
175 kW MAX output on generator
260-hp Internal Combustion Motor

I'll take the shake, rattle and roll with more ponies any day.
I've owned a Volt for 16 months and test drove a Karma a couple weekends ago. The performance of is a LOT less than those numbers would imply.

3,781 lb vs 5,300 lbs is quitte a bit to overcome.
Which is why the Fisker has almost twice the KW/Ton as the Volt, specifically, 94.34 KW/Ton for the Fisker vs. 58.71 KW/Ton. As the space shuttle has proven time and time again, even a heavy, almost brick-shaped structure would fly with enough power pushing it forward.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default RE: Fisker gets new CEO after 6 months of Lasorda

I hope Karma 2.0 will be much lighter... My own imagination at work:

- Dedicated range extender (as opposed to a repurposed GM 4-cyl) could shave perhaps 200-250 lbs of excess weight from the 600lbs of gen set

- Hybrid battery - Save 150-200lbs - A123 cells are known for their high power and low density (and ability to handle more charge/discharge cycles) while Tesla batteries are known for their superior density; having say a 5-10 kwh A123 coupled with a 10-15kwh Tesla battery would still give the Karma the ability to burst high power for acceleration (the only time its really needed), but also be much lighter with the lower power/higher density Tesla batteries (e.g. for cruising on the highway). I remember reading on TMC that Tesla has a patent pending for a hybrid battery.

- Gen 2 inverter/motor combo - Save 200-300lbs - Rather than two, rather large, rather heavy Chinese motors and two rather clunky and heavy inverters, a combined AC motor/inverter would save loads of weight and a ton of space.

- Smaller friction brakes - Savings of 50 lbs - Karma has incredible stopping power, maybe even more than it really needs. The lighter the Karma becomes with say, the savings from the above, then the smaller the Brembos need to be. I remember Fisker telling me that the brakes weighed about 100lbs PER WHEEL.

- Remove the solar panel roof - I know it looks cool but really it only serves as a talking point. Maybe keep the circuit-y pattern on an etched roof/pano roof. It weighs I think 100lbs+

I think the above could really translate into some real weight savings, say 650 - 850lbs based on my really wild guesses on the above ;-)

A Karma that weighed in the high 3000lbs or low 4000 lbs would be (even more) awesome to drive AND get much better fuel economy and electric range.
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