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Old 04-25-2014, 11:15 PM   #21 (permalink)
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smooth - your PM box is full ;-))
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:29 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I love where this conversation is going... this is going to go a long way towards a solution we will all need one day.

Perhaps someone at A123 can help us some more? Perhaps invite them to make a comment on our Forums so everyone can hear their perspective?

In all fairness to Tesla, the LiCo fire issue doesn't seem to be bothering sales or their multi-billion dollar marketcap. Like it or not, companies like them are what will drive the future of electric cars and we will finally see the largest arbitrage in human history take place. (nat gas vs oil)

I sure hope A123 can make us a better battery but I just don't want to depend on a company that's gone bankrupt before and have had issues before.

Is it not possible to keep the # of cells etc. the same but replace the actual cells in each pack with Tesla-like batteries so the BCM still sees it as the same number of overall cells? The temperature issue is just an assumption right now, we don't know how the current temperature control system on the Fisker could handle the heat put off by Tesla batteries. One thing I do know is that when it's cold in Toronto, the batteries sure do lose a lot of power so it's a shame some of that heat isn't used to keep the batteries running at a constant temperature.

It's not like I don't want an easier solution or believe we won't be able to replace our battery with something better but wouldn't it be nice to have more than one solution to depend on?

Pat
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:51 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Also, I get the sense that our batteries won't have much value if we need to replace them but instead, is it possible to 'refresh' them, have them recycled or could they be serviced so that they can again, hold a 100% charge?

I'm assuming the material value to our batteries wouldn't be very high so selling them for scrap doesn't sound like it would give us much value
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Old 04-26-2014, 01:17 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by asulil View Post
$15K seems like a lot. I am 100% all for discussing any idea on how to improve our cars - i think its great and am really appreciative of all the informed comments.
Using the spark system certainly seems more straightforward - but at $15K ? when you can buy the same amount of "energy" with the tesla batteries for around $5k.
The net cost will be a lot less than $15K because the Fisker battery, or the individual modules in the battery, will have some value as spare parts that can be recovered to offset the cost of a new battery under either upgrade scenario.
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Old 04-26-2014, 02:20 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valerun View Post
smooth - your PM box is full ;-))
Sorry about that cleared out some PM's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeydad View Post

Is it not possible to keep the # of cells etc. the same but replace the actual cells in each pack with Tesla-like batteries so the BCM still sees it as the same number of overall cells? The temperature issue is just an assumption right now, we don't know how the current temperature control system on the Fisker could handle the heat put off by Tesla batteries. One thing I do know is that when it's cold in Toronto, the batteries sure do lose a lot of power so it's a shame some of that heat isn't used to keep the batteries running at a constant temperature.

It's not like I don't want an easier solution or believe we won't be able to replace our battery with something better but wouldn't it be nice to have more than one solution to depend on?

Pat
There has been tons of research done on the Panasonic 18650 form factor batteries and the amount of precise control necessary to ensure that these cells are kept at the optimal temperatures (not only for efficiency but to ensure thermal runaway is not a problem as the chemistry is much more volatile than the A123 chem). The Karma enclosure in its current form cannot handle the Tesla batteries and without a massive R&D effort this is the path of most resistance. The amount of custom software, controls, hardware etc to make this work would be significant. If you are bent on a different form factor than the pouch batteries the Karma currently uses then the A123 AHR32113 cylindrical or 18650 batteries may be a good choice. I know that BMW uses the AHR32113 in their active hybrids. Problem is the BCM and all related hardware that is in our current battery enclosures will probably be useless and have to be re-engineered.

Here is some good reading on the Tesla thermal management (a bit dated for the Roadster but same principles apply for the Model S etc)

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most...e-battery-ever

On a different note I have not measured any of the 15 Karma modules at this point but they look to be around 15L with 1.3kw per module and around 345lbs in just cells (collectively). The power density seems to be really low by modern standards (on par with the NIMH EV1 27kwh in 300l volumetric capacity). There is definitely room for improvement just using A123 technology. Of course weight may be an issue but that is a whole different topic.
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Old 04-30-2014, 08:22 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valerun View Post
+1

and fitting Enerdel batteries into the original pack and the spaces that are cleared in the front. A quick photo of our project below. You can see a native pack on the right.

V
Valerun - Just curious you mention that you are using Enerdel Batteries - why are you choosing Enerdel over say 123 batteries? I am a layman but it seems the specs are very close and perhaps that A123 is even slightly better. genuinely curious. the link to the two specs for the two batteries is below:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l87xgmp5rlaa7dm/z4myg51IeQ
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:56 PM   #27 (permalink)
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well, A123 is unobtainium right now. I can get Enerdel from manufacturer on a week's notice...
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Old 05-01-2014, 01:29 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I've had no problems getting modules from A123



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Old 05-01-2014, 01:32 AM   #29 (permalink)
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can you share your contact (PM if makes more sense)?
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Old 05-01-2014, 01:45 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Sent over.



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