Fisker Automotive confirms EPA certification of 2012 Karma

[Wimbledon]

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[mattjs33]

OH BOY. 20 mpg on gasoline. I guess we were on the right track, but even we didn't see this coming:

(10-19-2011 01:11 PM)mattjs33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2011 08:08 AM)mattjs33 Wrote:  Correct; GM came up with the 230mpg figure based on the way that the testing was done previously to the Volt. The EPA quickly figured out that mileage would vary significantly with driving patterns and thus came up with the split figures that the Volt carries. My guess is that Fisker's original quotes of 70/80/100 were based on the same kind of thinking that led to GM's 230 figure.

The Volt's EPA gas mpg figures are 35/40, 37 combined. This was still viewed by some as a disappointment. Never mind that in terms of gallons of gasoline used per total miles driven (which howling EV purists conveniently forget is the whole purpose of a car like the Karma), some Volt owners are reporting figures in the 200-300 mpg range.

No, what were talking about is the gasoline mpg figure that will be staring everyone in the face from the Karma's official sticker. And I will just bet you that they are WAY below the ones the Volt achieved, because of the reasons I stated in my previous post.

I can't wait to see what happens next.

(10-14-2011 08:17 AM)Fabulist Wrote:  Fisker's claim on the gasoline mileage has always been 250 Miles on a 10-Gallon tank or 25 MPG, which is not exactly spectacular. It would be shocking if it comes in significantly less than that, but with Fisker, you never know.

Me too. They are rubbish at communicating with their customers but they are definitely good at building tension. Just to make things even more confusing, check out the "EPA EST:' figure in the screen shot I posted above

-- Fab.

(10-14-2011 08:17 AM)Fabulist Wrote:  Fisker's claim on the gasoline mileage has always been 250 Miles on a 10-Gallon tank or 25 MPG, which is not exactly spectacular.

I had not seen this, but this is about what I'm guessing.

For comparison sake:

Chevrolet Volt: 37 MPG on gasoline, 94 MPGe on electric, electric range 35 miles.

Fisker Karma: 20 MPG on gasoline, 52 MPGe on electric, electric range 32 miles.

Guess that sexy body is still gonna cost ya.

[brian]

Hah! I like how their press release even says "... supercar performance". Yeah, right. Maybe a supercar from the 1980's. God these guys are a bunch of liars or idiots - not sure which yet. Nothing they ever say turns out to be true. I'm *seriously* thinking about canceling my order and cutting my losses right now.

-Brian

[Dutch]

32 miles range in electric mode?!? @#$%

I have a daily commute of 2 x 45 miles (which was do-able with a range of 50 miles). But if 2 x 13 of those miles have to be done with a gasoline engine running at 20 mpg, that defies a great deal of the reason why I ordered this car (and I will not be driving it privately).

What happened?? How on earth can there be such a huge difference between the tests at the EPA and at Fisker? Is the EPA doing them at 100 mph? Or fisker at 55 mph? Why does Fisker still claim 'up to 50 miles range' (whatever that means)? Are they saying the EPA-test was wrong?

Shell shock...

[brian]

Yeah, I think Shell Shock is the best way to describe it, Dutch. I sent an email to David Harris (who we haven't heard from in a month here) and told him that nobody trusts Fisker anymore, and their poor attempt at a spin on this wasn't fooling anyone. I suggested that Fisker *immediately* get an independent test done to try and prove if any of their claims are true. Right now I trust the EPA over Fisker hands down. Fisker has mislead us about everything so far, so we have no reason to just trust that the car really will get 50 miles on a charge *in any conditions*.

I ordered this car because I wanted an eco-friendly ride that didn't suck. But this car isn't seeming so eco-friendly right now since my Aston gets the same MPG on gas. Plus, the crappy tires that wear out in a year, and the 0-60 has been downgraded to 6.3 seconds. It just gets worse and worse every day that this drags on... sooo... disappointed.

-Brian

[Dave_Car_Guy]

Dutch and Brian,

Re-posting here since we seem to have moved the discussion...

There is nothing really new here. I can't believe that you are so worked up over these numbers. The EPA numbers are based on a set of variables that you may likely never experience. Yes, it is not as efficient as the Volt, but OF COURSE, its a bigger car. Physics still apply.

Here are the facts:
(1) If you plug it in every day and drive less than 40 miles (maybe 32), your "gas mileage" is INFINITE. Range is your key measurement, and yes, I'd rather not see the 32 range by the EPA but I believe it will prove conservative, and...

(2) If you believe the EPA, if you plug it in and then run through the battery charge and the entire tank of gas, you get the equivalent of 52 mpg (that's better than a Prius). If you believe Fisker, it'll be better than that on average.

(3) If you sometimes plug it in, but not every night...but you do so a couple of times for each few hundred miles (a tank of gas), you will get somewhere between the Infinite number and the 52 MPGe. Maybe 100-200 MPGe. That's GOOD, right?

(4) If you NEVER plug it in, you are worried about getting 20 mpg??? First off, my guess is that the EPA number is overly harsh, but moreover: why on earth would you buy an electric car and never plug it in? It's a stupid measurement.

So, if you plan on buying an EV and never plugging it in.... um, yeah, the GAS mileage will suck. Its designed to work on electricity. The gas is just for range extension.

[Dutch]

Dave, I edited my post while you were writing yours. I have a daily commute of 2 x 45 miles, with a charge at the office in between. So for me 32 miles of range would be problematic, since the range-extender has such a lousy mileage.

I agree with you that for people with shorter rides, it is much less problematic, if at all.

It would be nice to have some more 'independent' testing, although I do consider the EPA to be quite independent. I wonder if the European tests will have a different outcome. I hope they do, also because they can have financial consequences. In my country cars are exempt from a huge car-tax when CO2-output is under 95 grams per kilometer. If the Karma were to go over that boundary, it would become unaffordable.

[dennis]

(10-19-2011 01:22 PM)mattjs33 Wrote:  For comparison sake:

Chevrolet Volt: 37 MPG on gasoline, 94 MPGe on electric, electric range 35 miles.

Fisker Karma: 20 MPG on gasoline, 52 MPGe on electric, electric range 32 miles.

Guess that sexy body is still gonna cost ya.

Maybe the closest comparison:

The Lexus LS600hL hybrid weighs 5000 lbs. and has an EPA rating of 19/23 mpg, which includes the use of the electric motor. It goes 0-60 in 5.5 seconds.

The Fisker weighs 5600 lbs. (or 5300, depends on who you believe) and has an EPA rating of 20 Mpg gasoline only and goes 0-60 in 5.9 seconds (or 6.3, depends on who you believe).

It's not marketing, its physics.

Dennis

[brian]

I'll just add this about EPA testing... I watch Motorweek every week and they always show what their mileage is compared with the sticker numbers. Almost all of the time the numbers they get are in the same ballpark as what the EPA reported. Usually +/- 3 MPG. But in the case of the Karma we're talking about 6x that kind of difference - not the same ballpark or even the same zip code.

-Brian

[Fabulist]

(10-19-2011 03:06 PM)brian Wrote:  I'll just add this about EPA testing... I watch Motorweek every week and they always show what their mileage is compared with the sticker numbers. Almost all of the time the numbers they get are in the same ballpark as what the EPA reported. Usually +/- 3 MPG. But in the case of the Karma we're talking about 6x that kind of difference - not the same ballpark or even the same zip code.

Brian, the EPA has the MPG testing pretty well down after 30+ years of doing it, but the battery range test is pretty new and still evolving. The Volt's EPA range is 35 Miles, but if you look at the comments from actual owners on Edmunds (LINK), pretty much all of them say they are getting between 42 and 48 miles of EV range. This matches up with what car magazine writers who took volts in extended tests found. Here's the summary:



I realize that the Fisker is not exactly the same as the Volt, but the point is that the EPA numbers for EV range appear to be on the low side when compared to the real world experience of the car.

-- Fab.